Help a nOOb find the perfect (for me) chef knife?

[Nihil]

LOCATION
USA

KNIFE TYPE
210mm Chef knife or Santoku
Right handed
Stainless steel preferred but not an absolute must
Budget: prefer $200 or less, but would go up a bit for just the right thing

As for Western vs. Japanese, this is where it gets complicated. My wife and I went to Sur la Table and tried out a few knives in the store and sliced some fruit. The Global G-2 and the Shun Classic both had heels that were too short--my knuckles kept hitting the cutting board. The Zwilling Pro and Wusthof both felt pretty good. The Shun Classic Western Chef knife seemed the best of both worlds. Japanese style but with the heel height of the German knives. My biggest concern with the Shun is the toughness of the VG-Max blade.

KNIFE USE
Home kitchen use only
Replacing an ultracheap set of Rogers (?) knives that someone gave us a long time ago.
Looking for an all around chef knife, so everything from chopping vegetables to trim meats to deboning chickens. I don't foresee the need to use this knife to break down bones, however.
Grips: pinch and hammer
Cutting motions: push cut, slice, chop. My wife rocks the knife a lot too, but I'm more of a slicer.

Priorities (in order):
1. Sharpness. My biggest complaint about our current knives is they're dull and don't hold an edge.
2. Toughness. While sharpness is important, I don't want a brittle blade that is going to chip easily or break if I cut an acorn squash and accidentally apply a little torque.
3. Comfort. I tend to lean toward bolsters that encourage a pinch grip (like Zwilling Pro or Made In) but have also tried some Gyuto that were comfortable with a traditional Japanese handle because of the small bit of tang that's exposed ahead of the handle.
3. Aesthetics. Would prefer to not get a boring looking knife I'm spending hundreds of dollars on it. Love the look of hammered steel and Damascus steel, but that' not an absolute requirement

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Cutting board: currently use synthetic board. Willing to switch as needed.

Sharpening: Don't do it myself currently but willing to learn and purchase tools. Have family members who can teach me and have whetstones.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
My wife really likes the 7" Zwilling Pro hollow rocking santoku. That appears to be a very tough knife. If I can't find a single knife that is the perfect mix of everything I want, then I could buy the Zwilling plus another knife and solve things that way. It doesn't really change my priorities--I still want a sharp, tough, good looking knife--but it does relax the toughness requirement a bit. Still don't want something I'm constantly worried about chipping.

Thoughts on the correct steel for what I want? CPM Magnacut seems like a good option, but it's hard to find knives made from that since it's a newer steel.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

First, I don't think you want MagnaCut yet.

I'm always going to advocate learning to sharpen early on so my recommendation will split up your budget.

Now, while I know it is not the 210mm spec you list, I did notice that your wife likes a 7" santoku.

With that in mind, KKF sponsor @TokushuKnife has a really nice Tsunehisa ginsan 165mm santoku on sale for $99.

https://tokushuknife.com/collection...-year/products/narl2ia2w901slqudwnpe20x97jjr7
Ginsan is a stainless steel that is really nice to sharpen, especially for stainless. Tsunehisa executes a nice knife and although a bit short for your ask, the geometry will give you both a great introduction to thinner, higher-performance knives while being very approachable for you both.

Next, get yourself this Shapton Kuromaku 1000:

https://www.amazon.com/Kuromaku-Ceramic-Whetstone-Medium-Grit/dp/B001TPFT0G
It's splash-and-go so no fuss and the case acts as a stone holder. This will make a really nice all-round stone to get started. At 1k it will be more forgiving to learning than coarser stones but will still cut fast enough to not be frustrating. And starting out, there's nothing wrong with a 1k edge.

Then consider the Chef Knives To Go 140grit diamond flattening plate for $30. This isn't the best plate but it will get you started and the price is approachable. This plate is used to keep your 1k stone flat.

With these three, you're sub-$200 and have a good launch.

 

[Jovidah]

I honestly don't see why you'd buy a 165mm santoku when shopping for a proper sized chef knife; 165 is hella short to the point that it limits it versatility. I also think it's a bad idea to try and find some kind of compromise between the preferences of 2 different people... you're better off buying 2 different knives that fully suit 1 person than 1 knife that dissatisfies 2 people.

If your concern is blade height (this might be as a result of how you hold the knife; I think you run into knuckle clearance issues faster when using hammer grip?) then it's worth looking at the specific measurements of the knife; most good knife shops will mention the exact blade height in milimeters somewhere.
It would help if you knew the blade height of the blades that worked for you and which didn't.

No matter how good or versatile your chef's knife is, it'll never be great at doing stuff like taking apart chicken or trimming meat. Sure you can do it in a pinch, but IMO both those jobs go better with less blade height. Instead of trying to find a chef knife that does those things, just spend 20 bucks on a cheap western boning knife or fillet knife.

I wouldn't obsess over the steel; while it impacts edge longevity it's not something that has a major influence on cutting performance or how well it suits you... and I don't think it makes sense paying the extra bucks to get something made from Magnacut when you don't really have a strong idea about what your preferences are.

If the wife likes the 7" rocking santoku... well.. it wouldn't be my choice, but if a wife can be satisfied at such a cheap price I'd just consider myself lucky. Also makes it a lot easier because then you can buy whatever you want for yourself without having to take any of her preferences into account, and since it's a somewhat sturdier knife it can also do double duty as your 'sturdy' knife.

 

[Nihil]

Thanks for the input so far! I do think I'm going to get the rocking santoku for her, and make it the "sturdy" knife.

Jovidah, your comments about checking the measurements of the blade height is spot on. I've been trying to do that, but in an odd twist I can find the measurements of all the small batch knife makers but not of the one that I know fits my hand (the Shun Western Chef). I'll keep looking. Maybe I just need to go back to Sur La Table with a tape measure in hand

HumbleHomeChef, your suggestion of the 165mm santoku is an interesting starting point. That lead me to look at a variety of cheaper entry points. What do you all think of some of these options:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizesThe specs say it's a 43mm blade height, and is made from Super Aogami, which sounds like it holds an edge well but requires a bit more care to avoid rust.

Or this one:
https://www.**************.com/haashagy21.htmlAlso Super Aogami steel, but slightly taller blade at 47mm. Love the two tone Wa handle as well with the hammered blade. Can AS steel be kept shiny, or will it always develop a dull patina?

This one as well:
https://www.**************.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.htmlI see the Tojiro DP referenced frequently as a good entry point into Japanese knives. The VG-10 construction doesn't seem to be anything special, but it seems well executed from the reviews I've seen. Blade height 43.7mm.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Jovidah]

If you're already struggling with blade height on a lot of other knives, 43/44 mm is generally considered on the low side. So I'd at least go for something 45mm+, if not more.

 

[Qapla']

What do you all think of some of these options:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizesThe specs say it's a 43mm blade height, and is made from Super Aogami, which sounds like it holds an edge well but requires a bit more care to avoid rust.

You might want to read the specs again; it's 43mm for the 180mm model. The 210mm and 240mm are 46mm and 50mm respectively, which probably are more like what you're looking for.

 

[Nihil]

If you're already struggling with blade height on a lot of other knives, 43/44 mm is generally considered on the low side. So I'd at least go for something 45mm+, if not more.

Very true. Perhaps what I need is a bunka instead of a gyuto; they seem to be a few mm taller than the same length gyuto. For example, the 210mm Kohetsu SLD Bunka has 51mm blade height, which is the same as a lot of western chef knives like Wusthof and Zwilling.

 

[Benuser]

You might want to read the specs again; it's 43mm for the 180mm model. The 210mm and 240mm are 46mm and 50mm respectively, which probably are more like what you're looking for.

I have both the 210 and 240. One of the nice features of the 210 is exactly not being too narrow. Comes with quite a subtle grinding allowing a decent food release for those used to a forward motion. One remark: right-handers only. The grinding is strongly right biased, with an evidently off-centered core steel. For marketing reasons a symmetric edge has been put on it which isn't exactly optimal.
The steel is finely grained, very hard but with no trace of brittleness. If you keep it thin behind the edge a conservative edge will survive almost everything.
As usual, the 240 has a totally different character. A real beast, as to be expected from the weight difference.

 

[Jovidah]

Very true. Perhaps what I need is a bunka instead of a gyuto; they seem to be a few mm taller than the same length gyuto. For example, the 210mm Kohetsu SLD Bunka has 51mm blade height, which is the same as a lot of western chef knives like Wusthof and Zwilling.

Bunkas aren't universally tall - just like not all gyuto's lack blade height (even amongst the 210s); there's a lot of variation. Hence why I said to actually dig up the specs before buying anything; I've seen 210 gyutos ranging from 42 all the way to 55mm.
If you move up to 240s you'll again see some difference in height but I don't think any that are low enough that it would give you problems with knuckle clearance.
On western knives you usually get enough height on a 20cm but you get other problems (like profiles that IMO outright suck due to having way too much belly, being overweight, being too rearheavy, being too fat behind the edge, etc).

 

[Benuser]

Popularity of bunkas and santokus in Europe has all to do with overly high tips with German chef's, which make them perfectly unusable unless you're very tall and your counter is far too low. See the often low tips with gyutos. A blessing for shorter people.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks for the input so far! I do think I'm going to get the rocking santoku for her, and make it the "sturdy" knife.

Jovidah, your comments about checking the measurements of the blade height is spot on. I've been trying to do that, but in an odd twist I can find the measurements of all the small batch knife makers but not of the one that I know fits my hand (the Shun Western Chef). I'll keep looking. Maybe I just need to go back to Sur La Table with a tape measure in hand

HumbleHomeChef, your suggestion of the 165mm santoku is an interesting starting point. That lead me to look at a variety of cheaper entry points. What do you all think of some of these options:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizesThe specs say it's a 43mm blade height, and is made from Super Aogami, which sounds like it holds an edge well but requires a bit more care to avoid rust.

Or this one:
https://www.**************.com/haashagy21.htmlAlso Super Aogami steel, but slightly taller blade at 47mm. Love the two tone Wa handle as well with the hammered blade. Can AS steel be kept shiny, or will it always develop a dull patina?

This one as well:
https://www.**************.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.htmlI see the Tojiro DP referenced frequently as a good entry point into Japanese knives. The VG-10 construction doesn't seem to be anything special, but it seems well executed from the reviews I've seen. Blade height 43.7mm.

Thanks for the help!

I honestly stand behind my recommendation of the Tsunehisa santoku at that sale price. I personally disagree that it overly hinders versatility. My wife does huge meal prep with a paring knife and 150mm petty. Yes, they are a compromise to many of us, but not to her.

There's millions of people doing full meals with 165mm santoku's and many on here that use one of them or a nakiri routinely.

At $99 and considering your inputs, I don't see how you beat it as an introductory knife. I just don't. Get the sharpening gear to go with it, learn to sharpen, and then the world is your oyster and you can go out on the hunt for your next knife.

Trust me when I say, the odds of you loving every little thing about your first knife are slim. That Tsunehisa will get you both started and will continue provide years of good service.

 

[tostadas]

If knives and stones ever restocks their shigeki Tanaka Ginsan, that would meet all of your criteria. They're around 50mm heel for the 210 version, continuous curve profile, and kinda medium thickness grind that's durable but not nearly as thick behind the edge as a German style knife.

 

[Jovidah]

There's millions of people who insist on doing their entire prep with a paring knife but that's no reason for me to recommend it to someone looking for a chef's knife. And it's not like you couldn't find plenty of 210s or even 240s in the same price range.

Popularity of bunkas and santokus in Europe has all to do with overly high tips with German chef's, which make them perfectly unusable unless you're very tall and your counter is far too low. See the often low tips with gyutos. A blessing for shorter people.

Actually I'm not exactly short (1,88) yet I still have no love for the high tips. It just makes the tip really annoying to work with, there's almost no flat spot left on the shorter versions, and it has way more curve than you really need to rock-chop. But yes I agree that it likely drives the popularity of santokus; they just have a way more functional profile than the average 20 cm western chef knife.

 

[Nihil]

Thanks for all the input everyone! I am honing in on a choice after looking at hundreds of options. My current front runner is the Kohetsu SLD Gyuto. It seems to have what I'm looking for in the balance of sharpness and toughness (if I'm understanding the info about SLD steel correctly) and it looks great. At $150 it's still affordable enough that if I don't like it I can sell it and not take too big of a loss.

 

[DitmasPork]

LOCATION
USA

KNIFE TYPE
210mm Chef knife or Santoku
Right handed
Stainless steel preferred but not an absolute must
Budget: prefer $200 or less, but would go up a bit for just the right thing

As for Western vs. Japanese, this is where it gets complicated. My wife and I went to Sur la Table and tried out a few knives in the store and sliced some fruit. The Global G-2 and the Shun Classic both had heels that were too short--my knuckles kept hitting the cutting board. The Zwilling Pro and Wusthof both felt pretty good. The Shun Classic Western Chef knife seemed the best of both worlds. Japanese style but with the heel height of the German knives. My biggest concern with the Shun is the toughness of the VG-Max blade.

KNIFE USE
Home kitchen use only
Replacing an ultracheap set of Rogers (?) knives that someone gave us a long time ago.
Looking for an all around chef knife, so everything from chopping vegetables to trim meats to deboning chickens. I don't foresee the need to use this knife to break down bones, however.
Grips: pinch and hammer
Cutting motions: push cut, slice, chop. My wife rocks the knife a lot too, but I'm more of a slicer.

Priorities (in order):
1. Sharpness. My biggest complaint about our current knives is they're dull and don't hold an edge.
2. Toughness. While sharpness is important, I don't want a brittle blade that is going to chip easily or break if I cut an acorn squash and accidentally apply a little torque.
3. Comfort. I tend to lean toward bolsters that encourage a pinch grip (like Zwilling Pro or Made In) but have also tried some Gyuto that were comfortable with a traditional Japanese handle because of the small bit of tang that's exposed ahead of the handle.
3. Aesthetics. Would prefer to not get a boring looking knife I'm spending hundreds of dollars on it. Love the look of hammered steel and Damascus steel, but that' not an absolute requirement

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Cutting board: currently use synthetic board. Willing to switch as needed.

Sharpening: Don't do it myself currently but willing to learn and purchase tools. Have family members who can teach me and have whetstones.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
My wife really likes the 7" Zwilling Pro hollow rocking santoku. That appears to be a very tough knife. If I can't find a single knife that is the perfect mix of everything I want, then I could buy the Zwilling plus another knife and solve things that way. It doesn't really change my priorities--I still want a sharp, tough, good looking knife--but it does relax the toughness requirement a bit. Still don't want something I'm constantly worried about chipping.

Thoughts on the correct steel for what I want? CPM Magnacut seems like a good option, but it's hard to find knives made from that since it's a newer steel.

This is worth considering IMHO—if open to a 240. Get a 20% discount if buying both petty and gyuto!
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...-stainless-150mm-wa-petty-and-240mm-gyuto-set

 

[sled_god]

I’ll throw in for something from Miyabi, either the Kaizen or Kaizen II series. The Kaizen uses an equivalent to Vg10 and the kaizen II uses an equivalent to either sandvik 13c26n or 14c28n I can never remember. Generally speaking if someone wants a $50 knife I recommend victorinox, if they want a $100 knife I recommend tojiro, if they want $150 or aren’t particularly bothered by price I recommend Miyabi.


I’m also a HUGE fan of having a cheap knife on hand. If you’re worried what you’re doing might break your knife you really should either A) NOT DO THAT THING or B) use a cheap knife.

Definitely learn to sharpen. A well sharpened 20$ knife will cut better than a dull $200 or $2000 knife.

 

[Barmoley]

Definitely learn to sharpen. A well sharpened 20$ knife will cut better than a dull $200 or $2000 knife.

This can't be overstated enough.

 

[sled_god]

This can't be overstated enough.

And honestly it took me TOO LONG to figure out how. I tried stones, I tried the spyderco sharpmaker, I tried other stones, I tried the whole sandpaper on a mousepad thing, I tried a lansky sharpener. Now I use a ken onion work sharp and it’s a treat. I know it’s not perfect but I sharpen my knives every week so only having to spend about 5 minutes to get it back to shaving sharp is awesome.

 

[Nihil]

I’ll throw in for something from Miyabi, either the Kaizen or Kaizen II series. The Kaizen uses an equivalent to Vg10 and the kaizen II uses an equivalent to either sandvik 13c26n or 14c28n I can never remember.

Funny, I was just looking at Miyabi last night before you posted this. I had sort of dismissed them because they're a large mass produced brand, but sometimes the economies of scale that come from that produce some really good stuff. They have an SG2 steel blade that looks very nice and it's the most affordable SG2 I've seen with the current black Friday sales happening now.

And I'm all in on learning to sharpen. I have a double sided stone as well as a Lansky system I'm going to try out. And have a few cheap knives to learn on.

 

[Nihil]

ken onion work sharp

OMG I just looked up the Ken Onion, that looks amazing! Easily worth $200 if it makes sharpening as easy as it appears. Thanks for the pointer!

 

[Strozzi]

@Nihil I bought my wife the 180mm Kohetsu SLD from ToGo a few years back and it is a great knife. Good performance for the price.

 

[DitmasPork]

OMG I just looked up the Ken Onion, that looks amazing! Easily worth $200 if it makes sharpening as easy as it appears. Thanks for the pointer!

IMHO, just get a decent mid grit or combo stone for $50—then watch Jon's video play list. Go at the knives—don't worry about scratching or scuffing the knife when sharpening—kitchen knives are tools, they're never works of art.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/blogs/media/63836741-knife-sharpening-playlist

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

OMG I just looked up the Ken Onion, that looks amazing! Easily worth $200 if it makes sharpening as easy as it appears. Thanks for the pointer!

There is a learning curve and you can mess up knives pretty quickly if you don't take the time to understand things.

I agree with @DitmasPork.

 

[Strozzi]

I have one of the worksharps and I have done more damage then good. I only use it for crappy knives that I don’t really care about. It’s real easy to melt the tip and get a frown in the heel.

 

[sled_god]

Funny, I was just looking at Miyabi last night before you posted this. I had sort of dismissed them because they're a large mass produced brand, but sometimes the economies of scale that come from that produce some really good stuff. They have an SG2 steel blade that looks very nice and it's the most affordable SG2 I've seen with the current black Friday sales happening now.

And I'm all in on learning to sharpen. I have a double sided stone as well as a Lansky system I'm going to try out. And have a few cheap knives to learn on.

Miyabi makes a GOOD knife. Is it the best knife in the world? No. Do a lot of chefs (real working chefs) use miyabi? In my experience yes.

 

[sled_god]

I have one of the worksharps and I have done more damage then good. I only use it for crappy knives that I don’t really care about. It’s real easy to melt the tip and get a frown in the heel.

I’m sorry, but “easy to melt the tip”? If your knife is melting the issue is NOT the sharpener.

 

[Jovidah]

To be fair though at the prices of Miyabi - unless you're able to get shocking deals in the US that we don't get here in EU - you can also get a lot of other very interesting bang for buck knives. I never found them a particularly interesting deal from where I'm sitting.

 

[Nihil]

To be fair though at the prices of Miyabi - unless you're able to get shocking deals in the US that we don't get here in EU - you can also get a lot of other very interesting bang for buck knives. I never found them a particularly interesting deal from where I'm sitting.

What does a Miyabi Artisan SG2 210mm cost in the EU? In the U.S. they regularly go for $180, which seems like a good deal compared to anything similar I can find. Definitely open to options though (hence considering the Kohestu).

Is $180 too much to spend on my first serious knife? Maybe, but I tend to ascribe to the idea of, "buy once cry once." I'd rather spend $180 now than $99 now and $180 later to end up in same place.

 

[blokey]

What does a Miyabi Artisan SG2 210mm cost in the EU? In the U.S. they regularly go for $180, which seems like a good deal compared to anything similar I can find. Definitely open to options though (hence considering the Kohestu).

Is $180 too much to spend on my first serious knife? Maybe, but I tend to ascribe to the idea of, "buy once cry once." I'd rather spend $180 now than $99 now and $180 later to end up in same place.

Takamura SG2 or VG10, Ikazuchi, En, Ashi Ginga from Bluewayjapan.

 

[Jovidah]

What does a Miyabi Artisan SG2 210mm cost in the EU? In the U.S. they regularly go for $180, which seems like a good deal compared to anything similar I can find. Definitely open to options though (hence considering the Kohestu).

Is $180 too much to spend on my first serious knife? Maybe, but I tend to ascribe to the idea of, "buy once cry once." I'd rather spend $180 now than $99 now and $180 later to end up in same place.

About 160 euros here on sale... probably about the same price you'd currently pay for a Takamura, and more than I paid for one 2 years ago.
Like blokey said; there's plenty of alternatives in that price range, it's not THAT cheap.
I don't think 180 is too much for a first serious knife, just make sure its a deliberate and conscious purchase. Which is extremely difficult when you don't have a solid grasp of your preferences yet; it's not like you can test-drive most of them unless you're lucky enough to have an actual good knife shop in your neighbourhood.