Help me design my first knife

[naptight]

My wife is buying me my first nice knife. I've had the same Victorinox 8"chef knife for the past 12 years. I spent the past week learning a ton about Japanese knife types, grinds, steels, how to use and care for them, etc. I really want something with a bog oak handle. In my search I stumbled across this awesome post by @miggus. I really dig the aesthetics of the knife and I'm super intrigued by this ancient bog oak stuff. I reached out to the Zakharovs who'll make whatever you want, I think. Their prices seem great too! They offer n690, apparently analogous to VG10 and m390 among others. I know laser grinds made form hard steels require a lot of skill to handle without chipping. But I'm careful and learning/practicing how to handle them. I'm a decent sharpener of woodworking tools. So I think I'll be ok if I dive into something somewhat high performance.

Now this is where you fellas come in. Tell me if this frankenife is a terrible idea or what. A 240mm gyuto with the blade curve and general dimensions from a Masamoto KS, a K-tip, a slightly pulled back shinogi at the tip, denty hira and a middle finger relief in the choil like I've seen on some Fujiwaras. I think a octagonal wa handle made from bog oak would be amazing. I'm playing with a light colored wood ferrule and a brass spacer that's placed at a parallel angle to the k-tip.

These are the dims:

Edge Length: 240mm
Spine Heel: 2.71mm
Spine Mid: 2.14mm
Spine Tip (20mm before): 1.39mm
Blade Height: 49.5mm

I think I should go with the n690 bc I'm afraid of messing up an m390 and it should be easier to sharpen. Plus its $100 less. What do you think?

I'm also thinking to ask for a matching 150mm petty in the style of the Masashi Shiroshu 150mm petty. I know some people love shallow petties but I think I prefer something taller. Or, at least I'm never really quite sure how to hold the victorinox paring knife so a petty thats pinch gripable makes sense in my head.

These are my renders:

And here's the Masashi Shiroshu 150mm petty profile.

 

[naptight]

 

[naptight]

 

[naptight]

are you into any of these?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The slanted handle will likely add to the cost as that gets more complex. Note you don't see a lot of handles like that.

As for the steels, it really is more about how they heat treat them than the specific composition. M390 at 58 is a much different thing than M390 at 63.

N690 won't have nearly as much vanadium so yes, in that sense it should be easier to sharpen.

Have a look: Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Bohler-Uddeholm M390, Bohler-Uddeholm N690, Takefu VG10 Version 4.36

That said, no amount research can prepare you for in-hand use. I know some folks do it, but there is no way I could've commissioned a custom before I tried several knives. I needed to understand my preferred sizes, weights, grinds, etc. Subtle differences can make a big difference over time. I had to try out a variety before I started zeroing in on things. And I'm pretty diverse in my likes.

Just something to consider is all.

I do like the light/dark combo on the handle but I am not a fan of metal spacers. They seem to invariably end up proud as the wood shrinks.

 

[icanhaschzbrgr]

Maybe just get yourself a real Masamoto KS and rehandle it later with a custom Bog Oak handle? That way you'll end up with a knife that actually cuts, not just splits and wedges.

 

[Jovidah]

You can have something resembling a KS or something with a K-tip, but you cannot have both.
Also, on what do you base that preference? Have you used a KS?

If you want something 'like a KS', your dimensions are off.

 

[naptight]

You can have something resembling a KS or something with a K-tip, but you cannot have both.
Also, on what do you base that preference? Have you used a KS?

If you want something 'like a KS', your dimensions are off.

Like I said I only started learning an Japanese knives this week. I keep seeing the og masamoto ks as a crowd fav. So why not try to get an approximation of it? I understand the narrow tip is a big feature of the ks, so point taken . The dimensions are off japanesechefknives.com

 

[naptight]

Maybe just get yourself a real Masamoto KS and rehandle it later with a custom Bog Oak handle? That way you'll end up with a knife that actually cuts, not just splits and wedges.

Are the Zakharov knives wedgers? They got a couple favorable reviews here, despite not being total laser grinds.

They only want $165 for a custom 240 gyuto. The cheapest ks is $300. I don't want to throw good money after bad but, again, to my naive eyes they don't seem like bad knives.

 

[naptight]

The slanted handle will likely add to the cost as that gets more complex. Note you don't see a lot of handles like that.

As for the steels, it really is more about how they heat treat them than the specific composition. M390 at 58 is a much different thing than M390 at 63.

N690 won't have nearly as much vanadium so yes, in that sense it should be easier to sharpen.

Have a look: Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Bohler-Uddeholm M390, Bohler-Uddeholm N690, Takefu VG10 Version 4.36

That said, no amount research can prepare you for in-hand use. I know some folks do it, but there is no way I could've commissioned a custom before I tried several knives. I needed to understand my preferred sizes, weights, grinds, etc. Subtle differences can make a big difference over time. I had to try out a variety before I started zeroing in on things. And I'm pretty diverse in my likes.

Just something to consider is all.

I do like the light/dark combo on the handle but I am not a fan of metal spacers. They seem to invariably end up proud as the wood shrinks.

Thanks for your thoughts. The bog oak and light colored wood would be stabilized so probably not going to have much shrinkage. But, I don't love the brass look anyway, no need to overcomplicate it. Same with the angle of the joint. It seemed like a cool idea but I don't totally love it.

I did go to a couple of stores to try different knives. I know what you mean, they feel radically different. But, I think it would take actually using them to cook over a little bit of time to develop preferences. This custom knife is not really any more expensive than a basic mass-produced one. They're only asking $165 for the n690 and $265 for the m390.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into agreeing with me. But, it seems logical that an inexpensive custom with high levels of fit and finish is a better first knife investment than something like a shun. But idk.

 

[tostadas]

Cool renders. Overall the knife looks doable. It kinda resembles the moritaka long bunkas. I think the dead flat spine looks kinda weird, but it shouldn't affect use in any way, as long as you're OK with that aesthetic. Taller tip means more surface area for stuff to stick.

I'd highly recommend against handle with metal spacers. Even with stabilized materials to limit movement, they will shift.

 

[icanhaschzbrgr]

Are the Zakharov knives wedgers? They got a couple favorable reviews here, despite not being total laser grinds.

They only want $165 for a custom 240 gyuto. The cheapest ks is $300. I don't want to throw good money after bad but, again, to my naive eyes they don't seem like bad knives.

The one that I have is more of an axe rather than a kitchen knife. I bought it many years ago because it looked cool on IG. If you end up ordering custom from anyone make sure you understand how thin it's going to be and what geometry is being used.

There are lots of threads here on KKF about "the best knife under XXX budget" so you might check for more affordable alternatives.

I'm very impressed by your rendering skills, but the overal design looks way too gaudi to me. Useless finger notch, giant santoku profile, short handle without any tapering. Not my cup of tea. That's why I suggested getting something classic before diving into the world of customs.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

$165 for a made to order knife would raise some flags for me.

 

[Jovidah]

Like I said I only started learning an Japanese knives this week. I keep seeing the og masamoto ks as a crowd fav. So why not try to get an approximation of it? I understand the narrow tip is a big feature of the ks, so point taken . The dimensions are off japanesechefknives.com

I don't know where you got those dimensions but they don't look accurate to me, for example a KS has an edge length of 255.
If someone has never seen a KS, simply giving heel/mid/tip measurements is unlikely to do it justice, since one if the things that sets it apart is how the tip starts tapering earlier than on most other knives.
Trying to somehow mix a KS with a K-tip isn't going to work and screws with the profile.

In general designing something custom without a frame if reference, or a solid idea of what your preferences are is really problematic. Even if he makes it exactly to your specifications, the problem is you don't really know what you're looking for in a knife. And the only way to find out what your preferences are is to try different knives.

 

[naptight]

$165 for a made to order knife would raise some flags for me.

True, but Miggus and Jaydee seem too think they're high quality, despite not being their favorite grind/steel.

I don't know what the going rate in Ukraine is, but for obviously reasons it maybe a lot less than other parts of Europe. Also seems like a great time to offer a bit of support to artisans there.

 

[naptight]

I don't know where you got those dimensions but they don't look accurate to me, for example a KS has an edge length of 255.
If someone has never seen a KS, simply giving heel/mid/tip measurements is unlikely to do it justice, since one if the things that sets it apart is how the tip starts tapering earlier than on most other knives.
Trying to somehow mix a KS with a K-tip isn't going to work and screws with the profile.

In general designing something custom without a frame if reference, or a solid idea of what your preferences are is really problematic. Even if he makes it exactly to your specifications, the problem is you don't really know what you're looking for in a knife. And the only way to find out what your preferences are is to try different knives.

Thanks, if I go this route I'll research whats important about the ks and get more gd&t data.

Also, I completely understand what you mean and agree with you re ordering custom as a nascent knifehead (what do you call yourselves?). Anyone in Ventura county want to let this guy do a little choppy choppy with your babies?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

True, but Miggus and Jaydee seem too think they're high quality, despite not being their favorite grind/steel.

I don't know what the going rate in Ukraine is, but for obviously reasons it maybe a lot less than other parts of Europe. Also seems like a great time to offer a bit of support to artisans there.

How a knife looks is vastly secondary to how it performs. For me, I start with the grind and profile. Everything else, including steel type is secondary. A gorgeous knife that doesn't work the way you want it to will become a gorgeous knife that doesn't get used.

Not trying to talk you out of anything and if your heart is set, by all means give it a shot. Just offering another perspective.

 

[Heckel7302]

Are the Zakharov knives wedgers?

The 170 I have certainly wasn't thin BTE. I am the third owner, I don't know how much it was sharpened before I got it. Certainly the primary bevels were hit with sandpaper at some point. I did a fair amount of thinning and put a benchstone fininsh on it. It performs great now

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Also, bog oak is pretty widely available.

Maybe hit up our own @MSicardCutlery. I don't think Matt is doing Ku finishes but his satin migaki is very nice and Matt can turn out a great knife for not a ton of money (comparably speaking).

 

[tostadas]

For the price, it may be worth your while to do this custom to at least confirm your preferences. It's likely you will find that maybe some assumptions you initially made aren't completely accurate. This is a good way to test that.

Some potential areas of issue that I see in terms of crafting to your expectations

1. Finger notch is hard to specify. Depth, radius of curve and height preference will vary depending on user. Too deep (distance from handle) and you wont get as tight of a grip. Not tall enough and your finger won't fit in it.
2. Handle dimension preference is another one that will vary greatly by user.
3. Depending on the makers process for handle making, having the two different angles could result in unevenness when comparing left and right sides. I don't think its necessarily difficult to do, but I can see many ways to mess it up.
4. Profile is easy to draw in cad but that doesn't always translate to how it ends up. For example I can draw a flat but gentle curve which transitions to a steeper curve in cad, but if I just look at the drawing, it could just as easily be interpreted as full flat + curve. This is better to simply describe in words what you want to avoid possible confusion. (ie for this example, relatively flat constant curve for the back 2inches and an increasing belly toward the front).
5. And grind is another thing that you probably need to try to figure out what you like. If all you have is 1 knife to go off of, maybe no real point in specifying any particulars here.

 

[Heckel7302]

Finger notch isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the rendering looks way too small. Even my TF I found to be too small to fit my finger, so I ground it out a bit to make it more comfortable.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Here's an example of Matt's work with a finger notch:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/post-994047
Now, there's a LOT going on in this knife and it is not representative of his "standard, more economical" offerings and he does much more straight forward stuff as well.

 

[naptight]

How a knife looks is vastly secondary to how it performs. For me, I start with the grind and profile. Everything else, including steel type is secondary. A gorgeous knife that doesn't work the way you want it to will become a gorgeous knife that doesn't get used.

Not trying to talk you out of anything and if your heart is set, by all means give it a shot. Just offering another perspective.

No no I want some sage advice from experienced enthusiasts. Ty

 

[KasumiJLA]

Just came here to say that your renders was pretty cool!

 

[naptight]

The 170 I have certainly wasn't thin BTE. I am the third owner, I don't know how much it was sharpened before I got it. Certainly the primary bevels were hit with sandpaper at some point. I did a fair amount of thinning and put a benchstone fininsh on it. It performs great now

Sorry bte? _ the edge? Thanks for your perspective.

 

[naptight]

For the price, it may be worth your while to do this custom to at least confirm your preferences. It's likely you will find that maybe some assumptions you initially made aren't completely accurate. This is a good way to test that.

Some potential areas of issue that I see in terms of crafting to your expectations

1. Finger notch is hard to specify. Depth, radius of curve and height preference will vary depending on user. Too deep (distance from handle) and you wont get as tight of a grip. Not tall enough and your finger won't fit in it.
2. Handle dimension preference is another one that will vary greatly by user.
3. Depending on the makers process for handle making, having the two different angles could result in unevenness when comparing left and right sides. I don't think its to do, but I can see many ways to mess it up.
4. Profile is easy to draw in cad but that doesn't always translate to how it ends up. For example I can draw a flat but gentle curve which transitions to a steeper curve in cad, but if I just look at the drawing, it could just as easily be interpreted as full flat + curve. This is better to simply describe in words what you want to avoid possible confusion. (ie for this example, relatively flat constant curve for the back 2inches and an increasing belly toward the front).
5. And grind is another thing that you probably need to try to figure out what you like. If all you have is 1 knife to go off of, maybe no real point in specifying any particulars here.

Thanks for the list. Good points!

 

[Heckel7302]

Sorry bte? _ the edge? Thanks for your perspective.

Behind The Edge

 

[naptight]

Finger notch isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the rendering looks way too small. Even my TF I found to be too small to fit my finger, so I ground it out a bit to make it more comfortable.

Totally. The artisan asked me to sketch handle designs, but I'm way faster in cad so I just them up. I figured I might as well model the blade too. But I did it fast without any real dims or reference.

 

[tostadas]

I'd highly recommend reaching out to Matt @MSicardCutlery. This is right up his alley, and I can vouch for his laser grind.

 

[naptight]

Here's an example of Matt's work with a finger notch:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/post-994047
Now, there's a LOT going on in this knife and it is not representative of his "standard, more economical" offerings and does much more straight forward stuff as well.

Thanks! I'll definitely check his stuff out!