How is the buying market?

[HSC /// Knives]

Recently read a blog of a maker experiencing difficult times with sales...
Curious what forum members think in current times, are you buying less? the same?
comments or opinions on the market? lot's of new makers in the market? challenges of social media restrictions?

discuss!

 

[Jovidah]

I think there's a few developments in recent years that may or may not (I'm really speculating here) influence the market:

-Corona created a massive boom in demand (people sitting at home developing new hobbies) but as things went back to normal I think that extra demand tapered off again.
-There's a lot more western knifemakers getting into the game...essentially there's way more makers competing for demand.
-There's still a tendency to overfetishize anything Japanese, and it still tends to be the starting point for most people in this hobby. And generally speaking - retiring exceptions aside - they still tend to offer fairly good value in comparison to western makers who are usually priced a bit higher.

For me, as someone who's on a tight budget, the issue is that 'going for a western maker' usually means a significant bump up in price compared to getting something from Japan. I think it's telling that knife makers who price more favorably instantly sell like hotcakes (for example when Simon Herde did a production run for 350-ish, or when Fredrik Spåre was selling honyakis for less than 400 euros).

The issue is of course 'how to get the price that low'. It seems like Japanese makers are doing way more batch production that at least seems more efficient to me than doing everything as one offs. If you want to take some financial risk out you could also do a 'production run' where people have to apply first so you know how much you can actually make that'll actually sell.

I think a future challenge will be that if knifemakers in low-wage countries like Indonesia start to up their game it'll be extremely difficult to compete with them when living in a place with a significantly higher cost of living.

 

[Delat]

I’m buying significantly less but not really because of budget, more because I have plenty of great knives already. And also a major secondary reason is I’ve realized I really want a specific kind of performance (and look) from a knife and randomly buying an “available” knife from a maker might get me something I’m not crazy about.

I still sometimes do an impulse purchase but my budget cap for those is $400 or so. If less-popular makers would give more detailed descriptions on their websites with cutting videos on something actually challenging instead of russet potatoes (e.g. sweet potato, gigantic carrots, acorn squash), I’d likely find a few more to take a chance on.

 

[esoo]

I think one of the biggest challenges for knife makers is that during the early stages of the pandemic there was a lot of free cash moving around. But as it progressed and "inflation" hit, those free dollars have had to move into necessities. That is leaving less free money for the disposables like knives. As a side-effect, buyers are for more selective into where they want to place their money. Less known makers will as a result be hit the hardest as their reputation isn't there to carry them.

Personally, I've moved over to customs exclusively. This is primarily due to being a lefty and having been burned enough by wrong-handed grinds. But for the proper customs, my budget is pretty wide. I'd say in general, I'd top at $750USD but there is outliers.

My buying has dropped off massively from a few years ago as well as I've tried a variety of makers and developed my preferences.

 

[aporigine]

For me, it is a combination of three factors.
1) I’ll pay more for a name whose products have a combination of stature (quality x time making knives) and a reputation for teasing the most out of the premier core steels.

2) I’ll pay more for a knife with the value-added features I seek: classical (fairly unadorned but perfectly proportioned and executed) aesthetics and an unwavering focus on “knifeness” i. e. function without gimmicks or proprietary flourishes.

More subjectively, I am not on board with the current fashion trends of massive spines, dirty (or op-art dammy) cladding, deep etches or übertall heels.

3 of 2) An unbroken record of accessibility by and collaboration with the savvy customer, and a willingness to guide an enthusiastic but less knowledgeable customer through what works best.

These militate against my custom of newer producers unless they have exceptional customer reviews combined with the other two factors, one objective and the other preferential.

 

[Heckel7302]

For small western makers I think:

$300-new maker trying to make a name through sales or experienced maker making batch knives that will sell quickly

$500-$700-experienced maker known for high quality work, but not with a huge following and has books open for customs

$900-$1,200-anything from a very famous maker whose books are closed due to demand with very little supply hitting the market.

 

[WildBoar]

$ also driven by damascus, san mail, integral bolster, handle woods, etc. And even if blade is ground from a sheet versus forged.

 

[Martyfish]

As you know from our previous contact, I have pretty specific ideas of what I want when it comes to knives. In general, I am looking for high performing pieces that differ in some meaningful way from what I already have, while still catering to my personal preferences. This, coupled with the fact that I already have too many knives results in me buying new knives pretty infrequently, just because it's very rare to find non-custom pieces that tick all of the boxes. If I opted to go down the custom route, a lot of the KKF desired makers have their books closed, so it's kind of a negative feedback loop.

None of this has anything to do with market conditions, but rather me limiting my purchases based upon what I already have and see readily available on the market.

Regarding how much I would be willing to spend on a knife, it entirely depends upon what materials and deign elements the knife contains. In order for me to spend over 1k, the knife in question would have to be a very unique piece, with interesting materials, striking aesthetics / finishes, a creative grind and above all, something that cuts well.

 

[Just a DK]

I think there are so many choices of makers these days... As a buyer that is nice.

I do think that the marketing effort that makers need to do has ramped up recently. The instagram situation is definitely not helping... I know people scoff at the "marketing" but I ended up here due to knifewear youtube vids trying to learn more about this takamura knife. There needs to be a way to have work shown / commented on for new people...even if it means talking about ootb edges on youtube......

 

[aporigine]

I think there are so many choices of makers these days... As a buyer that is nice.

I do think that the marketing effort that makers need to do has ramped up recently. The instagram situation is definitely not helping... I know people scoff at the "marketing" but I ended up here due to knifewear youtube vids trying to learn more about this takamura knife. There needs to be a way to have work shown / commented on for new people...even if it means talking about ootb edges on youtube......

Thanks for reminding me.
FB/Insta/Xitter are all a hard pass.
I don’t and won’t have an account with a Zurg enterprise.
Have a website, aspiring craftspeople.

 

[Just a DK]

Thanks for reminding me.
FB/Insta/Xitter are all a hard pass.
I don’t and won’t have an account with a Zurg enterprise.
Have a website, aspiring craftspeople.

As a small business owner, sometimes you have to sell out to break out!

 

[aporigine]

As a small business owner, sometimes you have to sell out to break out!

Etsy seems to be a way to do so, unless it happens to have been devoured without my knowledge.

Judging by the dominance of the bigs, mine is a minority opinion.

 

[tgfencer]

As someone in another trade where people constantly debate/criticise prices and who has worked for several small/family-owned businesses, I feel like pricing is a difficult beast to come to grips with both for the business and for customers.

The relationship between cost of goods, cost of labor, retail price, economy of scale, and the profit margin required to achieve a sustainable business is way slimmer than people would guess simply judging from prices. For one-man operations, I would imagine pricing becomes increasingly reactive to one's personal life situation (location, spouse's career, children, health situations, etc). This brings to mind the post Jannis made a few years back detailing his costs, taxes, income etc, which was probably an eye opener for a lot of people at the time, especially those unfamiliar to European tax schemes (https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/statement-on-the-prices-of-xerxes-knives.49638/).

As I'm sure others here have probably experienced, the pay in my industry hasn't done great at keeping up with global inflation or that of the knife market. Due to this, I haven't bought a knife direct from a Western maker in a couple years, although I picked up an older used Tansu on the forum. At this point, if I'm spending over a few hundred I'm probably buying from someone whose work I know that I like and whose livelihood and career I want to help support. I have a shortlist of new-to-me makers I'd like to try if the stars aligned, but that would be an exceptional purchase rather than a normal one in my current (and foreseeable) circumstances.

My general sense is that there is probably an increasing segment of the customer base that is being priced out of the market starting around the $500 mark for one reason or another. At the same time, it also seems that many knifemakers need to raise prices to keep from pricing themselves out of business.

I like working in butcher shops, it ticks a lot of boxes for me, but my wife sometimes mentions that I seemed happier when I was a farmer. As much I enjoyed farming and though I sometimes toy with the idea of going back one day, the incredible number of hours, the repetition, and the physical toll required to often just feel like you're barely keeping your head above water isn't something I miss. People can find ways to make anything work, its all a matter of the sacrifices you're willing to make to do so. I imagine that most knifemakers have had a similar experience in their careers at one point or another, so I don't begrudge anyone their prices.

 

[Matt Jacobs]

The secondary market is a little soft for me right now other than for a few makers. So while my budget hasn't necessarily lowered I am very cautious about buying from makers I would have jumped at in the past. Meanwhile there a few makers who's knives sell here used for significantly more than what they are quoting me for new custom work. It's confusing...

 

[stringer]

I have bought one "expensive" knife a year or so for the past 10 years. I am very cheap and so even if I suddenly became rich, I wouldn't buy more than this per year. I very rarely sell any knives so when I buy something it's forever. What feels expensive has definitely grown. I would say sweet spot for me right now would be about 800.

But I'm more into "collecting" whetstones and straight razors than knives. And my budget for them is $30. More my speed. Because I'm cheap.

 

[flow_the_pro]

I'm for not that long into the hobby and escalated quickly with at least a knife per month. For me it was more about trying out all the names that have been throwing around in this forum. It's kind of an easy buy for me in the 400-500 EUR range, and a tougher buy at 700, above that I feel like i'm afraid to use the knife and having reselling constantly on my mind. But realize if I want to try a Kamon etc, I have to spent more. But I also came to the conclusion that there are many great makers out there, and that there is unlikly to be something special about a "new" maker in terms of performance. Also beeing like 15, 240 gyutos in, I would like to turn this into a more financial responsible hobby and stop buying knives, focusing more on the sharpening/polishing aspect, and hence buying natural stones

 

[Noodle Soup]

I punched $500 only because I once paid that for a ABS Mastersmith Nick Rossi chef knife. Normally, $300 would be closer to my top end. I would much rather spend my money on travel to knife and food locations overseas than on sitting at home in the US ordering customs over the web. Japan last Nov., Spain in March, not sure about the rest of the year but someplace.

 

[OkayMode]

There are several factors that have influenced my purchasing decisions this year:

1. I bought a few more knives than was probably responsible last year, under the mistaken understanding that I’d get more or less the same back if I sold it on secondary. I then learnt the hard way that for the vast majority of the time, this is not the case.

2. The secondary market seems pretty weak and slow at the moment, so I’m not taking a punt on stuff I might have done in the past. Bumping a zombie WTS post feels a bit humiliating after a while.

3. The world is a bit grim at the moment - I realised earlier this year that I would rather focus the majority of my resources on experiences, trips and living well over material objects (until such a point in life when I can easily do both without having to choose).

4. Because of how in demand the ‘unicorn’ knives are, all the really good stuff here tends to move via trades for equally rare stuff, and is sourced via existing relationships rather than cash transactions on the ‘open market’ of BST. People probably assume I own more knives than I do - I have about 20 (which is still way more than anyone needs), and I’m quite happy trading one in one out now I have enough nice knives to help me source the things I want without continuing to pour in increasing amounts of money to the hobby.

5. I have had a few problems with a few different purchases recently, which have been a pain to fix (some of them can’t really be fixed) and taken the shine off new acquisitions. I’ve also worked on a few ‘polish ready’ knives now, and even though a lot of the work has been done, the remaining part is still tedious and time consuming. I would prefer to keep the knives I have put a lot of time and effort into (or more recently, have farmed out to the pros).

6. If I was spending lots on the hobby right now, it would probably be on JNATs - the bottom seems to have fallen out of secondary and it appears to be a buyer’s market.

 

[jedy617]

Max I would probably spend on a custom would be 1500-2000 but would have to be holy grail department. Of course for me it would really depend on the knife.

For honyaki, I like to be 600-1400ish, a bit more if it's something rarer like blue 1 or a more special steel rarely seen. For wrought iron low bevels...700-1200ish. Something cool in PM? Depends on the maker. I know in the US I can get that done with a belt finish for cheap, like real cheap 3-400 bucks, but most of those will be more plain flat grinds with a belt finish of course. For something really premium, like maybe like $1200 max?

All the above is just based on what I have bought in the past with a lot of success, so I don't see paying a lot more.

Kinda touching on what others have said, I kind of have accumulated a lot of what I want up to this point and I feel like a lot of us have. Covid pushed a lot of people into to the hobby and I think things have sorted to normalize and slow down a bit. But I'm sure there will be another big uptick eventually for some reason or another.

 

[timebard]

The market definitely seems to be challenging on a couple dimensions:

- A few very hyped makers sell out instantly and willingness to pay is very high. (Kamon, Yanick)
- Another few hyped makers also sell out instantly but have maintained prices at more reasonable levels. (Shihan, Kippington)
- A lot of up and coming makers with very competitive pricing putting pressure on everyone else. (Spåre, Eddie when they first came on the scene)
- A lot of less-hyped maker knives available on the secondary markets at good prices.

So I can really see why makers who aren't in the first three categories are struggling. From the consumer perspective, unless something really speaks to me, why pay $600-700 to a solid but non-hyped maker vs. $350 for something similar from an up-and-comer? Or used on BST?

For me, $500-600 is the high end of what I'm willing to pay for a maker that has a very strong reputation, matches my taste, and that I'm confident I can resell easily if needed. For newer or lower-profile makers, my bar is more like $350-400 unless they're doing something really cool.

 

[aporigine]

The market definitely seems to be challenging on a couple dimensions:

- A few very hyped makers sell out instantly and willingness to pay is very high. (Kamon, Yanick)
- Another few hyped makers also sell out instantly but have maintained prices at more reasonable levels. (Shihan, Kippington)
- A lot of up and coming makers with very competitive pricing putting pressure on everyone else. (Spåre, Eddie when they first came on the scene)
- A lot of less-hyped maker knives available on the secondary markets at good prices.

So I can really see why makers who aren't in the first three categories are struggling. From the consumer perspective, unless something really speaks to me, why pay $600-700 to a solid but non-hyped maker vs. $350 for something similar from an up-and-comer? Or used on BST?

For me, $500-600 is the high end of what I'm willing to pay for a maker that has a very strong reputation, matches my taste, and that I'm confident I can resell easily if needed. For newer or lower-profile makers, my bar is more like $350-400 unless they're doing something really cool.

Thing is, how do you distinguish the up-n-comers from the shooting stars (folks who make good stuff for a brief spell and then do something to ruin their cred?)
Imo there is an irreducible element of speculation there.

Of course, if you’re buying a knife for your lifetime or as a gift to friends or family, the speculation goes away.

Most of us here, I imagine, operate differently. I am in my happy place when i can buy knives across the spectrum, gain a broad perspective, then sell the ones that are not my cuppa tequila for reasons other than quality — and not take to big a hit.

Example: I bought one knife by a shooting star (CJA) for much money before I found out he poo’d the bed. I doubt I could realize half the cost in a BST. Objectively it is a pretty thing, well-made, obviously many hours of handwork, and it does the job with flair.
Soooo I’m classing it with the keepers and likely bequests to one of my kids.

Another previously respected maker is featured in the posts of the last few days, with the consensus that his poor business acumen is reducing the value of his work independent of whether the articles are better, worse, same as the ones that got him noticed originally.

My son is talented in the kitchen, but has a fair bit on his plate and evinces no interest in learning to sharpen. He’s ok with a block set in 3Cr13, and as a (trying to be) good parent, I’m not gonna argue religion. He has used my obsessively sharp cutlery and does not feel the same draw. He still turns out amazing food, which, like the hokey-pokey, is what it’s all about.

My daughter is chin-deep in building a career and a marriage, so I’ll sound her out once she has the luxury of switching from boost to cruise.

This post became a bit of a Disney ride, but to circle back, I have no idea how one sorts the sheep from the goats in this instance.

 

[ehhh]

Around $500 is the upper limit for me unless it's a hyped maker that I'm confident I would like/keep, and confident I could resell with minimal loss if I'm wrong.

Personally, I'd like to see more Western blacksmiths take a page out of the Japanese blacksmiths' books and do more "production" style runs in their standard profiles with simple steels and handles. Assuming that this is more economical to produce and makes it more accessible to a broader customer base.

Like aporigine said, there are a lot of different reasons knife enthusiasts buy knives. Different people with different budgets buying for different reasons, whether to collect, use, or both. I'd classify myself as someone that buys knives to use, but has somehow ended up with a collection of too many knives to realistically use.

As for distinguishing the hyped from the less-hyped and the up-and-comers, most of my speculation is informed by this forum.

 

[WildBoar]

Example: I bought one knife by a shooting star (CJA) for much money before I found out he poo’d the bed. I doubt I could realize half the cost in a BST. Objectively it is a pretty thing, well-made, obviously many hours of handwork, and it does the job with flair.
Soooo I’m classing it with the keepers and likely bequests to one of my kids.

Chris was one of the first new makers who priced knives based on labor hours, materials and all overhead costs -- so they were expensive compared to most other new makers. He had a tough divorce that caused him to relocate partially across the country just when he was getting pretty popular. Sadly when he was just getting restarted he also started being very vocal about his political beliefs. While his knife geometry was always polarizing, his political posts on social media scared off the vast majority of potential purchasers.

 

[aporigine]

Chris was one of the first new makers who priced knives based on labor hours, materials and all overhead costs -- so they were expensive compared to most other new makers. He had a tough divorce that caused him to relocate partially across the country just when he was getting pretty popular. Sadly when he was just getting restarted he also started being very vocal about his political beliefs. While his knife geometry was always polarizing, his political posts on social media scared off the vast majority of potential purchasers.

Yeah when I got the knife I took a look at the geometry and thought wt* but on use it performed. Not a Shibata but still engaging. I rotate it in along with the others in my opulent harem.

 

[Justinv]

For customs, I expect $500-1000 depending on length, materials, etc. I recently picked up a 190mm in PM steel with super premium wood handle for $700 and found that fair.

 

[RRLOVER]

Very interesting topic....Pricing is getting ridiculously High...It seems in another year their will be more knife makers than knife nuts!....I may sound like an A$$...But your(any maker) knife isn't worth $3500 and makers may be Pricing themselves out of business!...There is a finite amount of people spending that kind of money on knives....I have purchased purchased some expensive knives recently and honestly 2/3 of the don't cut worth a F##k....If someone out there has a time machine and would go back and break the legs of the producer of Forged in Fire to correct this issue that would be great

 

[deltaplex]

I'll chime in a little bit with a broad generalization. I will consider customs, but I find it a much better value proposition (price + fit and finish + how much work will I still need to do to it) to get something from a japanese maker than a "western" one. The work I see from a lot of those western makers either has an emphasis on something that's not very important to me (e.g. new steels, new geometries, tall heels, thick spines, expensive handle materials, etc.) or I've seen too much variability with the grind, the geometry, or the fit and finish from either other people's posts or trying them myself, that I'm interested to the point of wanting to acquire something from only a handful of those makers.

There's a whole lot of enjoyment to be had for <$200 with a knife (or a stone, or a board) and that makes paying $500+ for a custom a pretty steep proposition.

 

[HSC /// Knives]

Great discussion. Indeed I’ve found about $500 to be sort of a sweet spot for good steady sales. The poll results indicate 39% of you like that price point.

For one-man operations, I would imagine pricing becomes increasingly reactive to one's personal life situation (location, spouse's career, children, health situations, etc).

Very true here

But your(any maker) knife isn't worth $3500 and makers may be Pricing themselves out of business!

Very possible, every maker chooses where they want to be in terms of pricing, asking for $3,500-$5,000 per knife is great, if you can get it…

 

[YumYumSauce]

Kitchen professional. Buying at my normal rate, which is a knife every year or so. Can see myself slowing down as I fill the holes in my game.
Never done a custom. $500-700 is what id feel comfortable paying if i were in the market for something customized for me. Tbh wouldn't know what to ask for I'm a pretty simple wabi Sabi and omakase kind of guy. I use homemade cardboard sayas for tf's. Im more leave it up to the "experts", as long as they are the "experts".

 

[PappaG]

In my view @timebard is spot on. As a practical point I’m willing to pay and try almost any knife if I think I can sell it down the line and not lose too much $ so I can rinse and repeat (and try more and more and more knives).

So if I could get a yanick (I have never come close to getting one) i’d be much more likely to buy it (at any price point) because I feel confident I could sell it after I get a chance to use it and then try a new knife all over again. I love knives from Japanese Knife Imports because I have a firm belief I can use it and then sell it (and only lose a reasonable amount of money on the purchase).

But I won’t try buying a knife that I don’t feel confident I can resell down the line. Obviously, there’s lots of speculation and my own perception that goes into this and I’m wrong sometimes but I’m not spending a lot of money on a knife unless I think I could sell for a reasonable loss. Rinse and repeat. That’s the “sickness” of this forum/ hobby.