JNat Beginners Guide to Buying: Stories of Success, Pitfalls, and Fails

[Trouthead]

This is just the kind of info I have been looking for. Figure a JNAT stone will take me 6 months to buy, and I still might not get what I hoped for.

 

[tgfencer]

The ebay seller nonosandesu was brought to my attention. He is offering pictured stones taken straight off Morihei's website. As Morihei does not ship internationally and instead works through recognized vendors, it's unclear whether this seller is offering a service or if he whether he has any relationship with the shop. I've contacted him so we'll see what his explanation is, but in the meantime, take this as a word of warning.

Below are a few examples, but there are more.

Ex 1:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-N...336160?hash=item443903f2a0:g:Tx4AAOSwtLxckSbe

http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=131748131

Ex 2:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-N...rentrq:bb4fdb741690abc229ae21a0fffedf17|iid:3

http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=140841358

 

[Bert2368]

First stone (Ex 1):

The "original" Japanese web site offer is 62,640 yen = about US $560?

"New" ebay offer is "buy it now" for US $964

-------------

Second stone (Ex 2):

The "original" Japanese web site offer is 34,560 yen = about US $310?

"New" ebay offer is "buy it now" for US $550

----------

I will now go and make some popcorn.

 

[nevrknow]

Great find TG

 

[lemeneid]

 

[foody518]

For some of his offerings he's setting scalper prices and possibly for stones he does not currently even possess

 

[Alwayzbakin]

And if I should add some comments to the general topic - the best way when starting with naturals would be to borrow a few good quality stones from a friend and spend some time using them to understand the differences between naturals and synthetics well, try the feedback on different steels, try the edges and their retention you will get using various combinations...Its a big mistake to think you will understand naturals after spending 30 minutes with one or two pieces on one knife...its really a bit different world in many aspects! It would need to be really an exceptional stone with a phantastic feedback if that should be reality (haha, I had such a luck with my Ohira suita from JNS, which wasn't the first, but if I remember correctly my third natural I have ever tried and I immediately feeled that its something special...and it was THE stone which brought several friends of mine to naturals - in this respect its also good to mention that it, in my opinion, doesn't make much sense to go for naturals without having enough experience with reasonable synthetics)...

And if you don't have such a luck and chance to borrow anything, then its definitely better to start with something which is verified - i.e. with something from a reputable seller, those Watanabe koppas might be a good example for this, they don't make you a huge hole into your wallet like Maksim's stones (which are in my opinion overprized in most cases, although having very good quality) and then you can go for something bigger after already having some experience what you want...And its generally also better to start with softer stones than get something super, super hard...I know several examples of people which didn't do that and were completely disgusted!

And I should also mention that a great option is buying from some people here - if you will buy from let's say Otto aka Badgertooth or Todd aka tgfencer or some other people, you will ever get that what was promised and a great stone; they have no problem to spend enough time to explain you the details of a particular stone...and if it shouldn't be that what you are looking for (or they would recognize you are a beginner with zero experience who absolutely doesn't know what he wants, except of "he urgently needs a JNAT"), they would rather discourage you from it and recommend you something else...Simply they are people which don't want to earn money at any costs and prefer to be 100% objective...which is super important in this business...

And as regards my experience with Watanabe stones - I have tried about 15 pieces from him and except of one which has some slight issues all of them were good or very good quality and I can't complain...But his prices are definitely not the lowest ones, all the more that he currently doesn't want to put discounts which he put about 2 years ago when I bought most of my stones from him...

I had sent Sin a few emails asking for shipping quotes and asking a couple of times to buy a stone. Had read this thread and figured he was to busy to reply. I discovered later he had in fact responded promptly each time and they all went to my junk folder.

EDIT: I had meant to reply to catalystmans and others’ comments about not hearing back from Watanabe... must have gotten lost by the time I had read through the whole thread

 

[childermass]

Found a seller on ebay I hadn’t encountered before: https://ebay.at/usr/honing_guide

Browsing his listings I found one for an Iyoto stone:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.at/ulk/itm/264285729660

Reading the description it was kind of familiar. Found the exact same words on Keith Johnson‘s page:
http://www.tomonagura.com/jnats/jnat-gallery/ara-to--/striped-iyoto.html

I don’t know what to think about this. I tried to find other 'copied' text passages too, but Keith‘s site is just too full of stones.
He is selling mostly stones suitable for razors, so it might not be a real issue here but I thought I’d share it anyway.

 

[tgfencer]

Found a seller on ebay I hadn’t encountered before: https://ebay.at/usr/honing_guide

99.9% sure its this same guy below. If you go and look at the old sales of the honing_guide user, they take you to items sold by the kossy_1123 account.

YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices.

 

[Ivan Hersh]

It's hard to understand why a company like Ardennes Coticule would not try very hard, to handle this problem with for customer who has bought from them many times.

 

[loopback]

Having bought multiple stones from Watanabe, I can confirm that he is responsive and his product is of high quality. I have also visited Bernal Cutlery, and he was kind enough to let me try multiple stones to find one that felt the best to me. If you live near one of these shops, I encourage you to go in and see if they are willing to let you try some of their in-store stones to get a feel for the different options.

 

[Chef Doom]

Biggest mistake I made was getting a coarse jnat. Total wast of time and money.

Best thing I DID do was to keep costs as low as possible with two finishing stones and to not covete every stone type on the market.

I have been much more conservative with my stone purchases vs my knife purchases. I let my needs drive my wants.

 

[Ivan Hersh]

Being new to the using of Japanese water stones, i have found by buying from Amazon i have over a Month to return a stone i buy with no questions about why.

To me this gives me protection and so far it has worked very well for me, i understand others have had good luck buying from unknown sellers and if one is just risking from $20 to $50 US dollars, and if the item does not arrive or is just a worthless brick little is lost, in time i also might give it a try but i will never use PayPal.

 

[stringer]

olivia9467
I would like to add this name to the shady dealer list. They only have a couple stones listed. They sent me a "special offer" on one I had been watching. The wording seemed somehow familiar. I did a Google search and sure enough. The copy had been lifted from JNS.


eBay listing

JNS listing

 

[Ivan Hersh]

Looking at Ohira Stones i found this site about the Ohira Mines.
http://thejapanblade.com/blog/2011/09/10/the-ohira-mine-a-visit/

 

[Desert Rat]

I came across this seller on Ebay yamitsu13 apparently from Florida. Are these the cheap Chinese stones or maybe roofing slate? Listed as 12000 grit. Anyone have any experience with the stone? I know nothing about any stones except Arks and am in no hurry to get into the JNATS but I do hone razors. Suitable stone for such purposes?
I think I already know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[pentryumf]

If I may chime in. MetalMaster was a great introductory library of stones with very fair prices. I have also bought from AFramesTokyo and was equally pleased. TheJapanStone was where I bougbt one of my first stones, a nakyama kiita koppa, which is still my little joy stone. My stone library is simple and mostly koppas as their far more affordable. Lately I have purchased more stones of grade 40, 32 & 24, bench size that will outlive me easily. I would give two tips for any new Jnat owner, use it, again and again. Try it after bevel setting on synthetic, then just lose yourself is the experience, it's meditative. Secondly, buy a koppa to start even if you have the funds for a bench stone, a koppa gives the user an appreciation for grade/ size cost as well as nuances in rotations and staying flexible in technique.

The world of naturals is truly a higher plain of enjoyment when touching up a blade.

Admittedly my favorite combo right now is a honyama awasedo from BadgerTooth dressed on a Arkansas surgical, deadly.

 

[adam92]

While there are many sources of natural stones, these are the easiest to access for Western markets and the ones you're most likely to hear mentioned on forums or by other jnat users.

The purpose of this list is to provide information on credible and dependable vendors of jnats, as well as warnings as about vendors who have, through the experiences of our members, come to be seen as questionable. What people then do with this information is up to them, folks are of course free to spend their money where they wish.


I will keep this list as up to date as possible as new information becomes available and validated.

Last Update: Oct 29, 2018

Trustworthy Stone Sellers:
(Vendors who provide good information, high quality pictures, and can be corresponded with in a timely and transparent manner.)

JNS
JKI
Alex Gilmore/JapanStone
Aframes
Japan Tool-Iida
Carbon Knife Co.
Bernal Cutlery
Tosho Knife Arts
Japan-Tool
Hitohiro
Watanabe


Questionable Stone Sellers:
(Vendors who provide questionable or misleading information, pictures that may not be detailed or useful in determining characteristics of the stone for sale, and cannot be corresponded with in a timely and/or trustworthy manner, if at all.)

330mate (Aka. 130mate, Fujibato, umegahatatoishi_nakakatsu, Ymmtnofm, Mifuqwai, Dr_naka)- Low quality stones overall, though some have reported receiving good quality stones. Many stories of his being an unreliable vendor. There seems to be considerable risk involved with purchasing from this supplier, for every 'good' stone of his reported, there are dozens that are bad. You may get what you expect, you may not. Buy at your own risk.

YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices.

(Please Note: So far as I can determine, the kossy1123 account on Yahoo Auctions has no affiliation with YourTogiya's ebay account kossy_123. Kossy1123 existed long before YourTogiya's ebay account and the name was likely stolen as a ploy. )


Somewhere in Between/Hit and Miss:

Metalmaster- Out of date website, ebay, etc. Hard to communicate with, late or very delayed shipping on occasion, some customers have been forced to request refund due to goods failing to ship. However, good quality stock overall.

Japanese Auction Sites- As you would expect from an auction site (i.e. the ebay model) quality, honesty, and prices vary. Not recommended for beginners, those who want a sure thing, or those who just want to buy a good stone and be done with it. That said, steals can be found.





As a side note on Metalmasters: Personally, I've never had a problem with not receiving items and on the occasions they're late, its usually because MM is not very good about checking his sites when people buy stuff. That said, a grain of salt may be important here. He updates his website rarely (once or twice a year) and seems to be more and more inactive. Anecdotally, I once waited for some stones he told me he was going to restock soon, only to not hear from him until almost 2 years later.

Update my review on Ymmtnofm.

I bought an IYOTO 伊豫砥石 from him in buyee one years ago, the stone come with crack line which i didn't notice.

This is my first stone & only one JNAT, the slurry is only gray & feels like sandy, i guess the grit under 1000#.

Now my stone crack to 2 parts, probably 3 parts is coming soon as the line getting bigger...

Recently i saw Kossy_1123 post on buyee with shinden suita bid to above 30000 yen, don't know is it worth or not, since there's not many information maybe i should buye with watanabe/JNS or aframe..

 

[spyken]

I have not had much luck. A seller sold me something which I thought would be in the 2k range but turned out to be pretty rough in the 1k range. So far it's been a hit and miss and expensive lessons.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I have not had much luck. A seller sold me something which I thought would be in the 2k range but turned out to be pretty rough in the 1k range. So far it's been a hit and miss and expensive lessons.

Where are you buying your jnats, spyken?

 

[Xenif]

Update my review on Ymmtnofm.

I bought an IYOTO 伊豫砥石 from him in buyee one years ago, the stone come with crack line which i didn't notice.

This is my first stone & only one JNAT, the slurry is only gray & feels like sandy, i guess the grit under 1000#.

Now my stone crack to 2 parts, probably 3 parts is coming soon as the line getting bigger...View attachment 71540


View attachment 71540 Recently i saw Kossy_1123 post on buyee with shinden suita bid to above 30000 yen, don't know is it worth or not, since there's not many information maybe i should buye with watanabe/JNS or aframe..

Thanks for your update, but I think most of us already stay away from the 330/ymmtnofm/other alias see list*.

Kossy1123 is a good seller from what I can tell (not to be mistaken with kossy_123)

When you say theres a lack of information, do you mean the seller or Shiden Suita

 

[CiderBear]

Has anyone bought natural stones from Yoshihiro before?

 

[Carl Kotte]

I’ve bought a few small stones from eBayer ikkyujapanavenue. I know nothing about jnats so I can’t say if the stones are what they’re claimed to be. But the seller is nice and responsive and I’ve been happy with most things I’ve bought from him/her (again, I don’t know anything so the fact that I’m happy with the items doesn’t say much about the quality of the stones [emoji16]).

 

[adam92]

Thanks for your update, but I think most of us already stay away from the 330/ymmtnofm/other alias see list*.

Kossy1123 is a good seller from what I can tell (not to be mistaken with kossy_123)

When you say theres a lack of information, do you mean the seller or Shiden Suita

There's 2 Kossy? I've had no idea about it, the suita don't have much info for me, maybe i was wrong, Have you brought anything from kossy_1123 before?

 

[M1k3]

I believe kossy_1123 on Buyee is MetalMaster? On eBay it's that scammer.

 

[Xenif]

I believe kossy_1123 on Buyee is MetalMaster? On eBay it's that scammer.

Metalmaster is NOT the same as Kossy1123, I confirmed that, I have bought from both before. All other "Kossy" are scammers

There's 2 Kossy? I've had no idea about it, the suita don't have much info for me, maybe i was wrong, Have you brought anything from kossy_1123 before?

I have bought from the buyee seller, stone range from Ok to Good.

Heres a Shinden Suita from there

 

[spyken]

Where are you buying your jnats, spyken?

I'm not really looking for them specifically, but I saw one or two posts on IG and under $100, and I was tempted. I really don't have the budget for luxury stones these days. and have my synthetics so ideally if I could swap my synthetics for naturals without paying a single cent, that would be the best haha.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I'm not really looking for them specifically, but I saw one or two posts on IG and under $100, and I was tempted. I really don't have the budget for luxury stones these days. and have my synthetics so ideally if I could swap my synthetics for naturals without paying a single cent, that would be the best haha.

When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.

 

[tgfencer]

When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.

This. Buying natural stones-or really anything- isn't rocket science. Diamonds in the rough exist, but you aren't going to find them unless you're willing to devote the time and resources to sift several tons of dirt (or you're very lucky). Many people seem to think there's some way secret methodology to getting good quality items fast and cheap, but there's no real way to hack or beat the system. You get out what you put in and that means time, effort, communication, and due diligence.

 

[adam92]

Metalmaster is NOT the same as Kossy1123, I confirmed that, I have bought from both before. All other "Kossy" are scammers
How about this kossy ?

haved you brought anything from this seller ?


I have bought from the buyee seller, stone range from Ok to Good.

Heres a Shinden Suita from there


View attachment 71930