KitchenKnifeForums: A Boulevard of Broken BST

[esoo]

Is there anything specific I should look at to see examples of poor journalism? (Granted that I think the only ones who have called it journalism are in this thread. So any examples of bad texts from a fellow knife enthusiast feels more fair.)

I sort of like all the contradictions between Why aren't knives cheap? and Solo Makers can't pay the bills.

I was using the word journalism as that was what someone else did. They are blog entries. Someone's stories searching for a following.

Many of the articles come across as someone searching for content. And while there is references to research, there is little actual citing (and what is commented is sometimes so vague it inspires doubt).

I could replace knifemaker with cabinetmaker and come out the other end with the same articles.

 

[tostadas]

If you’d messaged the swap mod team we’d have talked it through.

Part of the problem we had with this kind of thing was identifying people who had explicitly broken our rules.

We did have a problem with people trying to take advantage of new comers or the less knowledgable on swap. It’s hard to catch them all and we relied heavily on “self-policing” from the community to call out flippers or people trying to make some money by excessive pricing or trying to hide bad condition etc.

It’s why we allowed negative comments in threads.

Made it easier for us to spot when users were trying to skirt rules or even just the principles we were trying to endorse.

Is saying “yeah but Reddit is worse” enough justification to not even want to discuss how things could be done better?

How would you have moderated Reddit to make it better?

Mariners article seems to, almost unfairly, focus on KKF’s BST to the exclusion of other forums, but the subreddit for BST is gone now so criticising it would be the very definition of flogging a dead horse. I don’t think they mean to imply KKF is the worst and everyone’s BST is the best. It just seems that way cause KKF is kind of the last man standing when it comes to specifically being a kitchen knife haven.

Exactly. When we find bad actors, they're called out quick, and mods hop on it. On other platforms where I don't spend as much time, I can't say whether this is this case. Honestly I don't care about how Reddit is moderated or how to make it better. I was just using it as an example, much like the marine guy did in this case. If you point out one example from a particular community and jump to conclusions about it, then the community will likely respond.

What I took away from the article, whether intended or not, was that he was trying to make a correlation between conflict of financial interest with deceitful sellers. I fail to make that connection.

With regard to BST rules, if the author researched (very very long) discussions of the rules and rationale, then perhaps he would have answers to his own questions.

 

[esoo]

I guess I just don’t care about the quality of the journalism because I think the article is less important than the idea.

If all we want to do is sit here and bag on the author fine, but I don’t see that as being constructive.

Yes there will always be bad actors but do you not think we should be open about talking about the problem and potentially making it harder and harder for bad actors to exist in the community?

The article was inflammatory and the author, who has been here for years, obviously didn't research that we have discussed many of these exact topics time and time again.

And while I agree that we need to weed out the bad actors, none of the actions suggested can do anything to stop them.

 

[DrEriksson]

Because no KKF mods make blog posts about the subreddit...and it's literally a subreddit mod quoting another subreddit mod in the article

The reason why KKF is targeted is mentioned in the two first sentences of the article. Did you read the rationale and disagree or are you just trying to cause a stir?

I think Marine deleted his account. Either way he’s not a subreddit mod. And if you’re referring to my quote, I think it’s rather obvious that it’s a joke with a grain of sand hidden there.

That said. You completely failed to address my point and chose to add fuel to a fire it seems you’re trying to light.

 

[IronBalloon]

Because no KKF mods make blog posts about the subreddit...and it's literally a subreddit mod quoting another subreddit mod in the article

They’re not a mod now.

I understand that they used to be active there but that’s not the case anymore.

I don’t think it’s fair to act as if Mariner represents a subreddit of 179k people that probably have no interest in anything but lurking and upvoting NKD posts.

I also go back to this point; just because we don’t like the language they used or the tone of the article does that mean we should ignore the issue that I feel was being raised?

Could BST be safer from bad actors? Should it be? Are we happy that the examples are outliers and are such a small proportion of the transactions that it does not merit any changes being discussed or considered?

 

[tostadas]

Far too many examples of opinions being presented as observations, without any citing of sources:

1. "Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk"
2. Simply put, KKF has always had financial conflicts of interest — BST is the most heavily trafficked subforum on the site by a long shot and the users drawn to it are a significant source of their funding.
3. Screenshot of newest posts across all of KKF taken November 21st at 10:50AM EST. Note that “WTS” (want to sell) posts on BST account for over half of new posts; which isn’t unusual.
4. The way KKF makes money is through forum sponsorships (professional craftspeople and vendors) and premium memberships (everybody else). Alienating those financial backers would result in an intolerable loss of income for KKF. Criticisms against current or future sponsors could impact their bottom line.
5. Any comment that a seller may be deceitful or artificially inflating a knife’s price is required by KKF rules to be posted in a thread outside BST. Since many such abuses are difficult to prove or are detectable only after-the-fact, most knowledgeable buyers stay quiet, leaving naïve newcomers to pay the price.
6. The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.
7. It’s all too common to see KKF users post glowing reviews of a knife, add it to the “knife finds” megathread, and do all manner of public marketing before conveniently — and of course spontaneously — deciding to sell that knife at a markup.

Any sources available for these claims?

 

[IronBalloon]

The article was inflammatory and the author, who has been here for years, obviously didn't research that we have discussed many of these exact topics time and time again.

And while I agree that we need to weed out the bad actors, none of the actions suggested can do anything to stop them.

Would it be preferable to use this thread to criticise Mariner’s writing then?

No need to consider if there is a valid point hidden in there?

No desire to use every opportunity to see if better solutions can be found?

We’re happy that what we have is the best it can be and that the best it can be will include the 3 examples chosen?

 

[esoo]

Could BST be safer from bad actors? Should it be? Are we happy that the examples are outliers and are such a small proportion of the transactions that it does not merit any changes being discussed or considered?

Possibly. Yes. We have already discussed this as a community - many times.

The BST is around the same safety of any person to person sale. I won't get killed or mugged buy/selling a knife on the forum although I could have been in an of my in-person sales (which thankfully have all be wonderful experiences)

 

[esoo]

Would it be preferable to use this thread to criticise Mariner’s writing then?

No need to consider if there is a valid point hidden in there?

No desire to use every opportunity to see if better solutions can be found?

We’re happy that what we have is the best it can be and that the best it can be will include the 3 examples chosen?

In an effort to be contrary and a keyboard warrior, you have completely missed my point.

 

[Jovidah]

Am I the only one here getting the vibe that I'm listening to a spokesperson duo campaigning to defend Mariner's virtues?
He's more than welcome to join the debate but it feels weird to have a debate with his white knights.
Maybe it's just me.

 

[esoo]

Am I the only one here getting the vibe that I'm listening to a spokesperson duo campaigning to defiend Mariner's virtues?
Maybe it's just me.

Not just you.

 

[jakuda]

as a lurker and occasional buyer of items (first buy here was an Ealy knife direct!), I found the blog post... interesting for about five minutes.

The blog post is not a news article. It's an Op-Ed, an opinion piece. Some items rang true for me, while others are hyperbole. If you treat it as such, one can lower blood pressure and stress levels.

 

[tostadas]

Am I the only one here getting the vibe that I'm listening to a spokesperson duo campaigning to defend Mariner's virtues?
He's more than welcome to join the debate but it feels weird to have a debate with his white knights.
Maybe it's just me.

@Mariner @DrEriksson @IronBalloon @Barclid were all mods of the subreddit. Just putting it out there for transparency.

 

[DrEriksson]

I sort of like all the contradictions between Why aren't knives cheap? and Solo Makers can't pay the bills.

I was using the word journalism as that was what someone else did. They are blog entries. Someone's stories searching for a following.

Many of the articles come across as someone searching for content. And while there is references to research, there is little actual citing (and what is commented is sometimes so vague it inspires doubt).

I could replace knifemaker with cabinetmaker and come out the other end with the same articles.

I’m not sure about the contradiction. The first is about what price might appeal to professionals. The other is about the economics about being a knife maker and scaling. Is there any specific point in which the contradiction lies?

There is a difference between research as used colloquially and research as in what my work is. If I were to complain every time someone used the words “research” and “theory” incorrectly (from my professional point of view) I would have time for nothing else. It would also be silly of me to reject an argument just because these words are used colloquially.

I had quite a bit of discussions with Marine over the years about knife making as a business, and I helped with some of the data in that article. My opinion is that it’s not a search of content that drove the discussions. It was a genuine interest in learning more about knife making as a business. For me it also led to actual research. The data is collected and I hope to write a paper about it. If I can find the time and a suitable co-author that can help.

 

[IronBalloon]

Far too many examples of opinions being presented as observations, without any citing of sources:

1. "Quietly, just about every veteran knife nerd admits that BST’s greatest use is for clearing disappointments and developing their taste in knives without shouldering as much risk"
2. Simply put, KKF has always had financial conflicts of interest — BST is the most heavily trafficked subforum on the site by a long shot and the users drawn to it are a significant source of their funding.
3. Screenshot of newest posts across all of KKF taken November 21st at 10:50AM EST. Note that “WTS” (want to sell) posts on BST account for over half of new posts; which isn’t unusual.
4. The way KKF makes money is through forum sponsorships (professional craftspeople and vendors) and premium memberships (everybody else). Alienating those financial backers would result in an intolerable loss of income for KKF. Criticisms against current or future sponsors could impact their bottom line.
5. Any comment that a seller may be deceitful or artificially inflating a knife’s price is required by KKF rules to be posted in a thread outside BST. Since many such abuses are difficult to prove or are detectable only after-the-fact, most knowledgeable buyers stay quiet, leaving naïve newcomers to pay the price.
6. The situation has gotten so bad that it’s developed a shorthand in BST: GLWS, or “good luck with sale”. This is coded sarcasm for a knife that should never reasonably sell given the assumed condition/price.
7. It’s all too common to see KKF users post glowing reviews of a knife, add it to the “knife finds” megathread, and do all manner of public marketing before conveniently — and of course spontaneously — deciding to sell that knife at a markup.

Any sources available for these claims?

Valid criticisms of the quality of the article itself.

I don’t disagree, but sometimes hard sources don’t exist for the “unspoken” aspects of a community.

Look at the trouble various industries have had with horrific things that have gone on for decades without a soul chiming up about them.

Perhaps we could chalk this up to one persons perspective, are we happy that that’s the case? Just a personal disgruntlement and nothing to worry about for the community at large.

For me though, I see it as an opportunity to talk about something’s that maybe don’t get talked about so much for fear of upsetting the status quo.

I would be hesitant to say to a KKF admin or mod, “hey you should do it this way!” Because it’s not my community, I like to browse but beyond that I’m not very active here.

A thread like this is very interesting to me though because I used to mod the swap sub and it was a real head scratcher at times.

But maybe it’s all unfounded and this is the best a BST can be.

 

[tostadas]

Valid criticisms of the quality of the article itself.

I don’t disagree, but sometimes hard sources don’t exist for the “unspoken” aspects of a community.

Look at the trouble various industries have had with horrific things that have gone on for decades without a soul chiming up about them.

Perhaps we could chalk this up to one persons perspective, are we happy that that’s the case? Just a personal disgruntlement and nothing to worry about for the community at large.

For me though, I see it as an opportunity to talk about something’s that maybe don’t get talked about so much for fear of upsetting the status quo.

I would be hesitant to say to a KKF admin or mod, “hey you should do it this way!” Because it’s not my community, I like to browse but beyond that I’m not very active here.

A thread like this is very interesting to me though because I used to mod the swap sub and it was a real head scratcher at times.

But maybe it’s all unfounded and this is the best a BST can be.

I'd direct you to the following 2 sticky threads at the top of the BST which answer most questions regarding the 3 suggestions in the article

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/bst-and-paypal-rules-reiteration.36428/
note that this one is much older
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-b-s-t.23206/

Also, read thru all 90+ pages of the flipper thread since there were numerous discussions within about whether changes should be made to the BST policies, and rationale behind them.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/flipper-alert.36865/
Nothing in the medium article brings up anything new that hasn't already been debated at great length previously.

 

[DrEriksson]

Am I the only one here getting the vibe that I'm listening to a spokesperson duo campaigning to defend Mariner's virtues?
He's more than welcome to join the debate but it feels weird to have a debate with his white knights.
Maybe it's just me.

I take part in this discussion for my own reasons. Insinuating that I’m doing it to protect Marine, or that he needs my protection is asinine. Is it really that difficult to imagine that someone is interested in discussing a certain topic?

 

[IronBalloon]

Exactly. When we find bad actors, they're called out quick, and mods hop on it. On other platforms where I don't spend as much time, I can't say whether this is this case. Honestly I don't care about how Reddit is moderated or how to make it better. I was just using it as an example, much like the marine guy did in this case. If you point out one example from a particular community and jump to conclusions about it, then the community will likely respond.

What I took away from the article, whether intended or not, was that he was trying to make a correlation between conflict of financial interest with deceitful sellers. I fail to make that connection.

With regard to BST rules, if the author researched (very very long) discussions of the rules and rationale, then perhaps he would have answers to his own questions.

Personally, I can see the logic behind some of the conclusions. Although, I won’t deny there’s nothing in the article that make them more than conjecture.

For me the only real interesting bit is those examples and whether or not they could’ve been avoided I guess.

But I understand if people don’t want to discuss that. If the thread is to be a place to critique the quality of the article then I guess that’s up to you guys.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

...

For me though, I see it as an opportunity to talk about something’s that maybe don’t get talked about so much for fear of upsetting the status quo.

I would be hesitant to say to a KKF admin or mod, “hey you should do it this way!” Because it’s not my community, I like to browse but beyond that I’m not very active here.
...

It's been talked about ad nauseum.

 

[IronBalloon]

I'd direct you to the following 2 sticky threads at the top of the BST which answer most questions regarding the 3 suggestions in the article

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/bst-and-paypal-rules-reiteration.36428/
note that this one is much older
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-b-s-t.23206/

Also, read thru all 90+ pages of the flipper thread since there were numerous discussions within about whether changes should be made to the BST policies, and rationale behind them.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/flipper-alert.36865/
Nothing in the medium article brings up anything new that hasn't already been debated at great length previously.

I won’t lie, I’m not the best at navigating KKF, I found my way to BST a few years ago and that was sort of as far as I went regularly (sue me I like looking at knives and stones and wondering what my wife won’t notice). So to have them linked is very helpful.

Thank you, I shall take some time to browse the threads.

 

[jedy617]

The reason why KKF is targeted is mentioned in the two first sentences of the article. Did you read the rationale and disagree or are you just trying to cause a stir?

I think Marine deleted his account. Either way he’s not a subreddit mod. And if you’re referring to my quote, I think it’s rather obvious that it’s a joke with a grain of sand hidden there.

That said. You completely failed to address my point and chose to add fuel to a fire it seems you’re trying to light.

There is no fire to light on my end. Everyone is always just enjoying our time here and then that dude just randomly comes here to ***** about kkf while not being a contributing member.

You talk about lighting a fire constantly but everyone's just sitting here enjoying a nice day before Thanksgiving and then this dude goes on a random unhinged rant about a community he isn't a part of anymore.

Like why? Who cares? Who's the target audience for this? What's his vested interest in making kkf look bad? The article amounts to a whole lot of nothing.

Not that many people are reading I'm sure. I don't even know how OP found that article lol

 

[user 16756]

Am I the only one here getting the vibe that I'm listening to a spokesperson duo campaigning to defend Mariner's virtues?
He's more than welcome to join the debate but it feels weird to have a debate with his white knights.
Maybe it's just me.

as opposed to what, us all participating in a dog pile on someone who isnt here to defend himself?

this is why I posted the laughing **** when someone suggested it was the tone not the message.

 

[IronBalloon]

It's been talked about ad nauseum.

So I guess we’re done then, I’ll browse some other threads and that’ll be that.

I shall leave you to your vitriol.

 

[DrEriksson]

@Mariner @DrEriksson @IronBalloon were all mods of the subreddit. Just putting it out there for transparency.

This I find silly for two reasons.

1: How is it relevant to the argument?
2: Iron and I have already mentioned our roles on Reddit and while doing so also explained Marine’s role on Reddit. It’s not like we’re not being transparent, so no need to make it seem as if we’re here for conspiracy reasons.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So I guess we’re done then, I’ll browse some other threads and that’ll be that.

I shall leave you to your vitriol.

You said maybe this subject doesn't get talked about out of fear. I pointed out that the exact opposite is true.

 

[tostadas]

This I find silly for two reasons.

1: How is it relevant to the argument?
2: Iron and I have already mentioned our roles on Reddit and while doing so also explained Marine’s role on Reddit. It’s not like we’re not being transparent, so no need to make it seem as if we’re here for conspiracy reasons.

It's not relevant, I'm just stating an observation. I did not draw any conclusions. That's the nice thing about opinions vs facts.

 

[DrEriksson]

There is no fire to light on my end. Everyone is always just enjoying our time here and then that dude just randomly comes here to ***** about kkf while not being a contributing member.

You talk about lighting a fire constantly but everyone's just sitting here enjoying a nice day before Thanksgiving and then this dude goes on a random unhinged rant about a community he isn't a part of anymore.

Like why? Who cares? Who's the target audience for this? What's his vested interest in making kkf look back? The article amounts to a whole lot of nothing.

Not that many people are reading I'm sure. I don't even know how OP found that article lol

I’m sure he didn’t intend to ruin your thanksgiving.

 

[Barclid]

This I find silly for two reasons.

1: How is it relevant to the argument?
2: Iron and I have already mentioned our roles on Reddit and while doing so also explained Marine’s role on Reddit. It’s not like we’re not being transparent, so no need to make it seem as if we’re here for conspiracy reasons.

It's a common response when someone doesn't like your viewpoint here. I got accused of being a Reddit shill/fanboy/whatever because someone "dug deep" and found out I was a mod on Reddit as if it was something I was trying to hide, and as if my posting on KKF didn't predate my posting on Reddit. It's easy to ignore valid criticism if you can find something about the person delivering it that you can attack.

 

[jedy617]

I’m sure he didn’t intend to ruin your thanksgiving.

It's all good. Frankly I just don't get the reasoning, like the seemingly random urge to make a blog post complaining about a specific section on an enthusiast forum website he isn't a part of anymore it seems. Feels like a waste of time (I say as I'm wasting time reading this thread)

 

[IronBalloon]

@Mariner @DrEriksson @IronBalloon were all mods of the subreddit. Just putting it out there for transparency.

For absolute clarity, I was a mod of the swap and sharpening subreddit (I guess technically still am but it’s closed so rather in name only).

I was briefly a mod of the main subreddit when they closed it over Reddit policy change protests. My appointment was more a joke than anything and I am no longer a mod because I never really wanted to be a mod.

It’s kind of a ****** job. I sympathise with those who have to moderate/run communities. It’s quite a bit of work for not a lot of joy.