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DrEriksson said:
Where do you think he’s out of line? (To clarify, this isn’t a GLWS comment, I’m curious for real.) Is he just wrong about stuff, or is it acceptable “sass” to get a debate going?
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The article suggests that KKF is full of cheats and scammers with the 3 examples picked out as a representation of BST, with one of the examples dating back many years.

And it was mentioned that paid memberships are required to post listings, which is false.

The debate about G&S, F&F and such have been debated at great length in various other posts. I think there are strong opinions on both sides, even within the forum community, so no need to get into that here.

I've personally bought and sold more knives that I can recall off the top of my head here over the years and have nothing but positive feedback of buyers/sellers for all of them. Many of these were with newer members. I'm curious how many dealings the @Mariner who wrote the article actually has through KKF, and if their experience is consistent with the 3 examples that were listed in the article. Would be very interested to hear his take on it, seeing that he's currently viewing this forum thread.
 
Tekkz said:
Clarify the rules on F&F, have punishments for breaking the rules, apply the punishments when the rules are broken and brought to their attention. Obviously they aren't going to be reading people's PMs. Right now it's not clear if a seller asking for F&F in a PM is even against the rules. Only that they can't ask for it in the BST post.
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There’s a few people here I would 100% trust with F&F. Would hate to get in trouble (or them get in trouble) for trusting someone because of past experience with them
 
SwampDonkey said:
Lol I'm full of snark but "GLWS" never even crossed my mind to be anything but a nice way to bump someone's listing.
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Yeah, same here. I thought the GLWS was genuine.

For anyone that had a thread where I posted “GLWS”….I actually meant Good Luck With Sale
 
tostadas said:
I'm curious how many dealings the @Mariner who wrote the article actually has through KKF, and if their experience is consistent with the 3 examples that were listed in the article.
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I'll try to limit participation in this thread since (1) I'm not really a established member of this community and (2) those who have skin in the game should get their voice heard here. But to provide clarification to this question, I've purchased around a half-dozen times through KKF. My experiences were generally "fine" with two minor disappointments. At the time, I didn't say anything because I assumed it was my fault for not knowing better.

As others have suggested, yes, this article is deliberately highlighting some of the worst behaviors in order to push for change. That bad behavior is not limited to KKF; it also existed on reddit's r/chefknifeswap forum and elsewhere. But given that KKF is the only remaining major player in the second-hand market, it wound up being the label used to express a wider frustration.
 
Jovidah said:
I agree, but the problem is that the original blog post wasn't exactly written in an honest and objective fashion... rather it was written in a way that felt rather insulting as someone who's been a member of this community for a while. Kinda undermines anything he tried to bring up - which I already said some of which I did actually agree with and asked for myself in the past).
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He's undoubtedly still a member and reading this......
 
This whole article is a mess. Poor journalism & implied bias throughout.

There are always going to be dishonest people but there are plenty of people who care for their knives properly. “Like new/never sharpened” can be legit. I have a few knives out of the box that I’ve literally never cut with & an even larger amount that I’ve used and never sharpened, yet.

If someone cycles through 25-30 knives is it so unlikely that one might not have seen a stone?
 
tostadas said:
The article suggests that KKF is full of cheats and scammers with the 3 examples picked out as a representation of BST, with one of the examples dating back many years.

And it was mentioned that paid memberships are required to post listings, which is false.

The debate about G&S, F&F and such have been debated at great length in various other posts. I think there are strong opinions on both sides, even within the forum community, so no need to get into that here.

I've personally bought and sold more knives that I can recall off the top of my head here over the years and have nothing but positive feedback of buyers/sellers for all of them. Many of these were with newer members. I'm curious how many dealings the @Mariner who wrote the article actually has through KKF, and if their experience is consistent with the 3 examples that were listed in the article. Would be very interested to hear his take on it, seeing that he's currently viewing this forum thread.
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100%!

I've had numerous experiences both buying and selling and they have all be excellent!

How many times have we seen knives, stones, etc. gifted to members? There's a thread going right now with a new member who is down on his luck and he's being gifted a knife and there were offers to collect funds for a stone. The knife gifting was subtle and no attention was sought and I believe was done by that mean ole admin that doesn't allow comments.

This is a community. Fluttering around BST and screaming at the bad examples that pop up is ridiculous. There's pages of great interactions that the screamers don't say anything about. Bad listings get jumped on real quick on other parts of the forum.
 
Mariner said:
I'll try to limit participation in this thread since (1) I'm not really a established member of this community and (2) those who have skin in the game should get their voice heard here. But to provide clarification to this question, I've purchased around a half-dozen times through KKF. My experiences were generally "fine" with two minor disappointments. At the time, I didn't say anything because I assumed it was my fault for not knowing better.

As others have suggested, yes, this article is deliberately highlighting some of the worst behaviors in order to push for change. That bad behavior is not limited to KKF; it also existed on reddit's r/chefknifeswap forum and elsewhere. But given that KKF is the only remaining major player in the second-hand market, it wound up being the label used to express a wider frustration.
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You could have made the point with a MUCH better tone. Terrible examples were used & there was no mention of the majority of honest trades. Many people have had problems rectified or hell, even trades that needed NOTHING further.
 
tostadas said:
The article suggests that KKF is full of cheats and scammers with the 3 examples picked out as a representation of BST, with one of the examples dating back many years.

And it was mentioned that paid memberships are required to post listings, which is false.

The debate about G&S, F&F and such have been debated at great length in various other posts. I think there are strong opinions on both sides, even within the forum community, so no need to get into that here.

I've personally bought and sold more knives that I can recall off the top of my head here over the years and have nothing but positive feedback of buyers/sellers for all of them. Many of these were with newer members. I'm curious how many dealings the @Mariner who wrote the article actually has through KKF, and if their experience is consistent with the 3 examples that were listed in the article. Would be very interested to hear his take on it, seeing that he's currently viewing this forum thread.
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Two things where I disagree.

1: I can’t find where it states that premium membership is required to list stuff. “Premium” is only mentioned one time as far as I can see, and it doesn’t say what you claim.

2: The three examples are not intended to represent BST as a whole. The text clearly states that those constitute an historical overview of BST abuse.
 
Tekkz said:
Clarify the rules on F&F, have punishments for breaking the rules, apply the punishments when the rules are broken and brought to their attention. Obviously they aren't going to be reading people's PMs. Right now it's not clear if a seller asking for F&F in a PM is even against the rules. Only that they can't ask for it in the BST post.
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The BST rules basically say that it is PayPal rules that require G&S when you are buying/selling goods so as not to get around the fees. So it is basically a PayPal rule, not specifically a forum rule.

And I'm whole for buyer/seller negotiating payment in what ever manner they want. If a buyer and seller want F&F let them have at it. They both know the risks. Sure the forum tells me I should list PayPal, but that shouldn't stop me from using other forums of Payment (Venmo/Wise/Interac) which are not really different than PayPal F&F.
 
DrEriksson said:
Two things where I disagree.

1: I can’t find where it states that premium membership is required to list stuff. “Premium” is only mentioned one time as far as I can see, and it doesn’t say what you claim.

2: The three examples are not intended to represent BST as a whole. The text clearly states that those constitute an historical overview of BST abuse.
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3 examples over how many years and how many trades?
Calling it historical abuse is a joke. No system is perfect and it would be impossible to make it so.

People choose what they buy, if they make a bad decision it isn’t someone else’s fault. Go on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook market place and show me a difference.
 
Mariner said:
I'll try to limit participation in this thread since (1) I'm not really a established member of this community and (2) those who have skin in the game should get their voice heard here. But to provide clarification to this question, I've purchased around a half-dozen times through KKF. My experiences were generally "fine" with two minor disappointments. At the time, I didn't say anything because I assumed it was my fault for not knowing better.

As others have suggested, yes, this article is deliberately highlighting some of the worst behaviors in order to push for change. That bad behavior is not limited to KKF; it also existed on reddit's r/chefknifeswap forum and elsewhere. But given that KKF is the only remaining major player in the second-hand market, it wound up being the label used to express a wider frustration.
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Oh there you are...

So KKF, the platform that has survived all the BS and continues to offer a place for enthusiasts to interact gets your vitriol because it's still around and the biggest?

Neat.

Here's an idea, start your own forum or knife sales platform.
 
It’s unsurprising that 2 notorious people from the Reddit sub that exploded are the 2 writers & defenders of this article.
HumbleHomeCook said:
Oh there you are...

So KKF, the platform that has survived all the BS and continues to offer a place for enthusiasts to interact gets your vitriol because it's still around and the biggest?

Neat.

Here's an idea, start your own forum or knife sales platform.
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DrEriksson said:
Two things where I disagree.

1: I can’t find where it states that premium membership is required to list stuff. “Premium” is only mentioned one time as far as I can see, and it doesn’t say what you claim.

2: The three examples are not intended to represent BST as a whole. The text clearly states that those constitute an historical overview of BST abuse.
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But the Ma_sha saga was highly entertaining. I remember it well. The s0real (Bladesaffair) story is KKF lore but before my time.
 
Gshep91 said:
You could have made the point with a MUCH better tone. Terrible examples were used & there was no mention of the majority of honest trades. Many people have had problems rectified or hell, even trades that needed NOTHING further.
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For an analogy. If you write an opinion piece targeting road accidents and reckless driving in order to push for changes towards safer driving, you would not make the piece about all the safe drivers. Same with good BST practices. You highlight the issue by showing the worst, because that’s where change is needed.

It’s reasonable that this rubs honest people the wrong way, but it doesn’t negate the issues with shady sellers and buyers not being as protected as they could be.
 
DrEriksson said:
For an analogy. If you write an opinion piece targeting road accidents and reckless driving in order to push for changes towards safer driving, you would not make the piece about all the safe drivers. Same with good BST practices. You highlight the issue by showing the worst, because that’s where change is needed.

It’s reasonable that this rubs honest people the wrong way, but it doesn’t negate the issues with shady sellers and buyers not being as protected as they could be.
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Statistics. This article is to make people upset and emotional. Not to actually talk facts. Just admit it.

ONE line about “a majority of people & trades are honest and fair..” and a little change in tone and you have a worthwhile piece of journalism. This is a joke of an article.
 
Gshep91 said:
3 examples over how many years and how many trades?
Calling it historical abuse is a joke. No system is perfect and it would be impossible to make it so.

People choose what they buy, if they make a bad decision it isn’t someone else’s fault. Go on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook market place and show me a difference.
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I’m all for a good discussion. But what you’re doing now is that you’re deflecting from the two points where I felt like you are incorrect. This is not conducive to a good discussion.

Are you incorrect in any of the two points, or am I incorrect about those two points?
 
Mariner said:
That bad behavior is not limited to KKF; it also existed on reddit's r/chefknifeswap forum and elsewhere. But given that KKF is the only remaining major player in the second-hand market, it wound up being the label used to express a wider frustration.
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It's one thing to say that second hand selling via forums or other platforms (ie. ebay) has inherent issues. But the fact that every paragraph in your article says "KKF" kinda goes against this comment.

Your article mentions 3 solutions to BST:
  1. allowing critical comments
  2. prosecuting flipping
  3. enforcing G&S
These 3 have been discussed at length in several BST threads. In the end, this forum is not an exclusive club or anything, but rather an open exchange to allow for communication, with unpaid moderators on the side to help keep the peace. For anyone deciding to use BST, there is a general acceptance of these policies, despite any personal objections they may have.

Bottom line is, I don't see the policies changing, and even if they did, they don't solve the "notoriously bad" problems you suggested.

So with that being said, I'm honestly trying to understand the purpose of the article. Whether it's an attempt to get specific problems fixed on a forum that you are not an active member of, or just ranting.
 
Reading this thread sure makes it seem like the article was a personal attack on the character and beliefs of the users
 
Gshep91 said:
Statistics. This article is to make people upset and emotional. Not to actually talk facts. Just admit it.

ONE line about “a majority of people & trades are honest and fair..” and a little change in tone and you have a worthwhile piece of journalism. This is a joke of an article.
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You can talk facts without statistics. It is not strange to focus on outliers, if outliers are the problem. It would be silly to always have to make excuses for the average and mean. Imagine the weather reporting about a tornado while also having to speak about the average number of tornadoes being low, speaking about crime and having to say that most people didn’t commit that crime, and so on. That’s just silly. I stand by my previous reply. Your response didn’t add anything to it.

I can’t admit to the intent of the article. I didn’t write it. You have to ask the author for a response to that.
 
DrEriksson said:
Two things where I disagree.

1: I can’t find where it states that premium membership is required to list stuff. “Premium” is only mentioned one time as far as I can see, and it doesn’t say what you claim.
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This is what I was referring to.

DrEriksson said:
2: The three examples are not intended to represent BST as a whole. The text clearly states that those constitute an historical overview of BST abuse.
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The headers "Why is BST so notoriously bad", and "A short historical overview of BST abuse" to me suggest a more chronic issue. In fact, the sellers of the 3 examples used in the article are no longer active members of KKF as far as I know.
 

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DrEriksson said:
You can talk facts without statistics. It is not strange to focus on outliers, if outliers are the problem. It would be silly to always have to make excuses for the average and mean. Imagine the weather reporting about a tornado while also having to speak about the average number of tornadoes being low, speaking about crime and having to say that most people didn’t commit that crime, and so on. That’s just silly. I stand by my previous reply. Your response didn’t add anything to it.

I can’t admit to the intent of the article. I didn’t write it. You have to ask the author for a response to that.
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You can’t write an article that implies an entire community is full of snakes, thieves, and liars by picking 3 outliers.
I’m done but, at the end of the day, it’s a garbage article for views. It sounds like someone is just upset that they lost their Reddit community because of lazy mods.
 
tostadas said:
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This is what I was referring to.



The headers "Why is BST so notoriously bad", and "A short historical overview of BST abuse" to me suggest a more chronic issue. In fact, the sellers of the 3 examples used in the article are no longer active members of KKF as far as I know.
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Then we do agree that the article doesn’t say that you need premium to list stuff and that the article clearly states that those examples are just examples of the abuse, but BST or KKF in general.
 
kinglukas38 said:
Reading this thread sure makes it seem like the article was a personal attack on the character and beliefs of the users
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I certainly didn't take it as such. But I did take it as an attack on a community I care about and enjoy being a part of. It was a very, and quite intentionally skewed "article" and done outside the forum where if it hadn't been pointed out, would have likely been unchallenged.
 
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Gshep91 said:
You can’t write an article that implies an entire community is full of snakes, thieves, and liars by picking 3 outliers.
I’m done but, at the end of the day, it’s a garbage article for views. It sounds like someone is just upset that they lost their Reddit community because of lazy mods.
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You certainly can.

This article didn’t do that though. It lists the problems. I find the problems interesting to discuss since they can create bad experiences for both new and old enthusiasts and most of us have a common interest to take care of the community.
 
DrEriksson said:
Then we do agree that the article doesn’t say that you need premium to list stuff and that the article clearly states that those examples are just examples of the abuse, but BST or KKF in general.
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Correct. The rationale behind that statement though are the bullet point conclusions that say essentially, these problems exist as a result of premium memberships providing funding for the site. I think we've seen more instances than not of "supporting members" getting banned for this type of behavior rather than protected due to the revenue they generate.

As far as I am aware, there is no commission or anything of the like that from sales to incentivize shady dealings.

It's really in everyone's best interest to eliminate all deceit from BST. I totally agree with that.
 
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