lets have a new razor thread.

[Luftmensch]

It’ll get shaving sharp, but doesn’t shave as well as a safety razor or a Harry’s.

Can’t seem to get that HHT sharpness.

I try to strive for HHT to get 'shaving sharp'.

There is some scepticism about how useful the HHT is. There is validity to those arguments. I don't think it is particularly useful as an absolute measurement of sharpness... nor a guarantee it will result in a nice/smooth shave. But there is use to the HHT in a relative sense. For instance, it is useful to know that you are passing HHT in the middle and nose, but not the heel. If you are able to get your razor to HHT, it is also at least an approximate performance reference for you to strive for - you will know you are in the ballpark

I never got a shave with a straight razor that felt as smooth as a disposable, multi-bladed razor - irrespective from who honed it.

I haven't used multi-bladed razors in years. I used to get rashes from them. Truth be told... I probably didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't invest in reading about how to get the most out of them. So I cant really remember how they feel?

One thing that I think straight razors excel at; is shaving longer hair. You can shave a full beard off with a straight razor! Not something you can really do with a safety or multi-bladed razor. So if you like to shave infrequently (as I do) straight razors do what other razors cannot! I have pretty thick hair and straight razors are quite long (more surface area of contact) - so it never really feels effortless. There is always some feedback. I dont see that as a bad thing, it is just part of the tactile experience.

 

[captaincaed]

@Luftmensch I think we’re on the same page in both respects. I occasionally need to shave through longer hair, hence the interest. I’m also aiming for the HHT as a benchmark more than an absolute requirement. Feels like a box I should be able to check so I can assess how well my sharpening is going. I have read that some people prefer their razors not quite that sharp, and have a more comfortable shave. I’d love to know any tips/references for getting there myself.

 

[zizirex]

I don't expect to get HHT-5 on medium stone, but if you get HHT1/2 on mid grit that means you're going in the right direction.
It's also very hard to get HHT-5, HHT-4 is what I usually get. I don't have that patient LOL

 

[Luftmensch]

Badger and Blade is the KKF of the straight razor world. Lots of good info there. Haven't been there in years... so I dont know if the common wisdom has shifted in any particular direction.

I think some people use burr formation to set a bevel? I believe most do not. Raising a burr might imply a higher pressure than you need. Straight razor sharpening uses a very light touch.

Personally I use the thumb nail test (TNT) to judge how even the sharpness is after setting the bevel. Using only the weight of the razor, drag it across your thumb nail (perpendicular). You should feel a nice even resistance as it bights into the nail. If it chatters, jumps or loses grip and glides, the bevel is not adequately set. Again, you may also find differences in the toe, heel and belly.

Use X-strokes on the stone to get the toe, heel and belly. The stroke also encourages a smile in the razor rather than a frown over the long term. Watch how the water travels in front of the razor. When you get a nice wave travelling in front of the razor and it feels like it is pulling into the stone, you might be ready for the next stone. If you are setting the bevel, this would be a good time to try the TNT.

Over time you should be able to get some form of HHT off a middle grit stone. Some gurus might even get there at the lower grits! If you can't pass HHT on a middle grit, try stropping a bit and then trying HHT. Drawing the edge through balsa could be quite destructive to the edge. Strop on felt, then leather to clean up the edge instead. You might be surprised by the jump in sharpness.

Pressure control is more delicate in straight razors than kitchen knives. On your final polishing strokes you will want to be using blade only pressure - the lightest you can manage. Torque the edge ever so slightly into the stone. On your lower and mid grits you may choose to use the highest pressure you can before bending/flexing the razor. Clearly this means that you can use more pressure on a wedge over a full hollow! But this still isnt a lot of force. At the end of each stone, you can also lighten up and do a few strokes before the next stage.

You'll get there!

 

[Rangen]

Out of curiosity, I succumbed to the pitch of the "ancient oceans" guy who sells Jasper stones. I got an interesting stone, for sure. But unless I'm missing some important detail of how to use the thing, I'd never use it for a razor. For me, it produced a very fine edge that was very toothy. Examination with a 20x glass revealed tons of very fine scratches. Not what I want in a razor, I like my facial skin too much, but it's about perfect for my pocket knives, so I'm happy I have it. Might be super-interesting on a kitchen knife, too, will have to see.

 

[captaincaed]

@Luftmensch thank you kindly for the primer! I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints. Thanks for laying out a coherent A-Z process. I'll get practicing.

I was doing a couple of things you suggested, but didn't understand the burr from the razor perspective. I'll work on minimal burr formation and minimizing possible tear out. I'm still thinking about knives where there's a little more room to play. Very cool.

One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones?

Many thanks
Cc

 

[kayman67]

There are more ways to get results than we might like. That's somewhat the curse here.

HHT is possible after setting the bevel (around 1000 grit, but saying 1000 is like saying "after using a stone", so I'll say after Naniwa Professional 1000 or Shapton Pro 2000 and the likes). And should happen at some level. A good bevel does this. Usually around HHT 3 is as good as it gets here. Based on some opinions, this is the true sharpening level.

Now, HHT isn't really a good marker for a comfortable shave. The good about razors is their or maybe, our ability to fine tune them to the desired level. But it's not always the razor itself or just the razor. Since the tools are kinda different, just changing one with another, isn't guaranteed to work (better). Think also in terms of new procedures, pre shave or shave oil, for example, some steam (so after shower shaving) and so on and so forth. Everyone is different or in a different category. There is no one way fits all. Takes a bit of time. Takes a bit of trial and error.

About the jasper. Was it burnished? Was fine oil used?

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones?

I consider 4k-8k to be the midrange. As far as tape, it depends on the razor and its geometry.

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

Badger and Blade is the KKF of the straight razor world. Lots of good info there.

I'm bluesman 7 on B&B.

@Luftmensch I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints.

Opposing viewpoints on a social media site? What kind of dystopia do you live in? Just kidding!

 

[Rangen]

About the jasper. Was it burnished? Was fine oil used?

It was certainly lapped flat, and feels quite smooth to a finger. Does that qualify as "burnished?"

I used water, not oil.

 

[kayman67]

If you see a mirror like reflection, it's burnished to some degree. If not, some particles could still be working, thus scratches.
But for stones like Translucent, Charnley Forest, Jasper, some light honing oil is a good thing. WD40 works well, if you have some. For example, with Charnley this made a huge difference in performance and finish.

 

[Rangen]

If you see a mirror like reflection, it's burnished to some degree. If not, some particles could still be working, thus scratches.
But for stones like Translucent, Charnley Forest, Jasper, some light honing oil is a good thing. WD40 works well, if you have some. For example, with Charnley this made a huge difference in performance and finish.

Oh. No, not burnished then, dull to the eye. How do I get from here to burnished? I'm guessing SiC particles on glass would be good, but at what size(s)?

 

[kayman67]

http://diamondtecusa.com/product/hand-pads-resin-diamond-3000-grit/
Try finding something like this. When new needs some usage before it starts to perform.
You don't have to go crazy and make it 100% perfect. It will still improve the performance a lot.
Another option is to use a very fine SiC stone (Carborundum made some of these and sold them as razor hones).
There are other ways, but nothing as easy as these.

But first, give the lubricant a go as well.

 

[Luftmensch]

@Luftmensch thank you kindly for the primer! I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints. Thanks for laying out a coherent A-Z process. I'll get practicing.

I was doing a couple of things you suggested, but didn't understand the burr from the razor perspective. I'll work on minimal burr formation and minimizing possible tear out. I'm still thinking about knives where there's a little more room to play. Very cool.

One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones?

Many thanks
Cc

No problem-o! Thats just a rough guide to my approach... Like @kayman67 says:

There are more ways to get results than we might like. That's somewhat the curse here.

I should add, there is better advice out there than mine. Some people have engaged in razors deeply as a, long-term hobby. I did at the beginning when I was learning. Once I had a repeatable routine I was happy with, I got fatigued with all the options and pulled back from experimenting with the minutiae. Thats why I am not sure what the current common wisdom or trends in the community are? I can't imagine they have shifted much.

I consider 4k-8k to be the midrange. As far as tape, it depends on the razor and its geometry.

Similarly... I would say approximately:

major chip repair < 800 (never done it)
800 < bevel set <= 2K
2K < polishing <= 8K
8K <= polish++

The boarders are fuzzy. It depends on what you find works. For what it is worth, from bevel set my routine would be:

1K Naniwa superstone (SS), 4K SS, 8K SS, 12K SS, maybe J-nat, strop

But in reality... once you have set the bevel, straight razor honing is really boring!! I haven't found much reason to dip below 8K for refreshing the edge - maybe add some slurry for a more aggressive cut.


Tape or no tape... bad geometry aside, it is really just a choice as far as I can tell. The last I left it, it was one of them-there debates with no end. Arguments against it are that it makes the edge ~1 degree less acute. Over time it changes the edge geometry since the spine is supposed to wear in sympathy with the edge. Arguments for it are that it protects the spine (e.g. fancy designs, gold leaf). It makes the edge ~1 degree more obtuse for more wear resistance and durability....

Basically.... you can swap between choices if you reset the bevel each time. I do tape...but maybe I should try without!!

 

[Chuckles]

So I haven’t had to drop below my Ozuku Jnat since I figured it out. I have a linen strip now that is loaded with chromium oxide. That seems to make a razor really great at cutting my face. The Jnat doesn’t take much time and is a much better shave. At 8k and above the flatness of the stone might be more important than what the stone is. It is soo important to get the stropping technique down. This cannot be over emphasized.

I am loving the straight razor shaving. Way better than bic. Now that I have all the gear sorted it is just a thing running in the background and integrated into the routine. Haven’t been to B&B in a while. Used Proraso green for the summer it is now running out and I am going to switch to red for the cold months.

I am growing the stupidest handlebar mustache right now. I wear a mask all day at work and I am enjoying knowing that I look ridiculous underneath.

 

[captaincaed]

This is such a nice response.

Once I had a repeatable routine I was happy with, I got fatigued with all the options and pulled back from experimenting with the minutiae.

I'm aiming for this as well...

Now that I have all the gear sorted it is just a thing running in the background and integrated into the routine.

Not looking to geek out at this point, but be nice and functional. May play around later. I don't have a stone any finer than 8k, only Jnat is an Aizu, which I'm fairly sure I don't want anywhere near my face. Sounds like the linen strop is also a no-go?

I know Jack **** about finer natural stones. Any tips on something to finish up on? I may go hunting for remnants.
Like I said earlier, have yellow, blue coticules and both black and translucent Arks in the toolbox.

But in reality... once you have set the bevel, straight razor honing is really boring!!

I agree! What's your ballpark time for doing touch ups? Just trying to avoid the "too much" and "too little" time traps.

 

[Luftmensch]

What's your ballpark time for doing touch ups? Just trying to avoid the "too much" and "too little" time traps.

Sure! Touch ups are pretty quick. I will do 10 laps on the 8K and another 10 on the 12K? Let say a couple of minutes on the stone and 10mins for set up and clean up?

But @Chuckles had it:

It is soo important to get the stropping technique down. This cannot be over emphasized.

Good stropping can take you very far! Once you have an edge you are satisfied with, you can go a long way with good stropping. It might be 3 months before you feel the need to do a touch up. Some folk out there use pastes... I do not. But I believe you can get away with stropping close to indefinitely if you use pastes?

I don't have a stone any finer than 8k

Unless you have tree-trunks for hair or super sensitive skin, it is possible to shave off an 8K. In fact... it is probably a good way to learn and know you'll get the best out of anything higher. A 'bad' 8K might mean the bevel is not set properly or the 4K finish is off.

Any tips on something to finish up on?

@kayman67 might have better advice? I am not expert on naturals. There is a pretty big universe to explore out there for straight razor shaving. When I want to 'play' I experiment with a couple of hard Nakaymas as the last step... not sure I can really say anything definitive though.

Proraso green

Mmmmm... this and Mitchell's wool fat shaving soap are my default choices!

 

[Rangen]

Linen strop is great for cleaning up the edge after shave -- in more ways than one. Surprising the crap that comes off a razor I thought I cleaned up on my towel.

I'm still early in my straight razor shaving journey, and not decided on one routine. If I use the flattened, pasted balsa strops, down to 0.1 micron, then leather, I get a crazy sharp edge that shaves wonderfully, but needs a careful hand to avoid cuts. If I just hone on the Nakayama Maruka, and follow on denim pasted with Flitz, and then leather, the science of sharp routine, roughly, I get an easier shave, and a good shave. Not as keen, but very very functional. Haven't settled on one or the other; I have razors devoted to each. I admit more razors are devoted to the pasted strops.

I'd love to hear more about hanging strop technique from those that have mastered it. Haven't really had any trouble with it, but definitely flying blind. How taut should you pull the thing?

 

[cotedupy]

I had a quick q...

I don't use a straight razor, tho I may start sometime, and know absolutely fa about them. There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.

I assume that when looking at the state of a blade it would be fairly similar things to watch out for as on an old knife...?



[EDIT - Sorry if that was a complete derailment. I confess I may have just skipped to the end of this thread, rather than reading all the way through. And have just noticed it's in the sharpening forum, so probably not just a general discussion. My bad!]

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.

The main thing to watch for, IMO, would be corrosion near the cutting edge. Sometimes the pitting can go a lot deeper than it looks and then the edge turns to swiss cheese as you hone. After that I would avoid anything with heavy wear or looks like heavy buffing was done on it. Good luck.

 

[cotedupy]

The main thing to watch for, IMO, would be corrosion near the cutting edge. Sometimes the pitting can go a lot deeper than it looks and then the edge turns to swiss cheese as you hone. After that I would avoid anything with heavy wear or looks like heavy buffing was done on it. Good luck.

TY! This was something I noticed when restoring a single bevel knife recently. Luckily it wasn't too bad, and I managed to fix in the end, but it was deeper than I thought, and became apparent as I sharpened.

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

To give creditability to Victor Creazzi (not that he needed any), here are two razors he made I'm buying from him.

 

[captaincaed]

OK I took the razor to the local shop, where the owner is a razor nut. He worked it over and said "it's not you, it's the steel.". Got a new one, it's tree topping arm hair. Boom.

 

[captaincaed]

I had a quick q...

I don't use a straight razor, tho I may start sometime, and know absolutely fa about them. There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.

I assume that when looking at the state of a blade it would be fairly similar things to watch out for as on an old knife...?

View attachment 101497View attachment 101498View attachment 101499

[EDIT - Sorry if that was a complete derailment. I confess I may have just skipped to the end of this thread, rather than reading all the way through. And have just noticed it's in the sharpening forum, so probably not just a general discussion. My bad!]

GET CARBON. Old stainless is suspect (from my extensive experience with one razor ever.)

 

[captaincaed]

Linen strop is great for cleaning up the edge after shave -- in more ways than one. Surprising the crap that comes off a razor I thought I cleaned up on my towel.

I'm still early in my straight razor shaving journey, and not decided on one routine. If I use the flattened, pasted balsa strops, down to 0.1 micron, then leather, I get a crazy sharp edge that shaves wonderfully, but needs a careful hand to avoid cuts. If I just hone on the Nakayama Maruka, and follow on denim pasted with Flitz, and then leather, the science of sharp routine, roughly, I get an easier shave, and a good shave. Not as keen, but very very functional. Haven't settled on one or the other; I have razors devoted to each. I admit more razors are devoted to the pasted strops.

I'd love to hear more about hanging strop technique from those that have mastered it. Haven't really had any trouble with it, but definitely flying blind. How taut should you pull the thing?

After playing around with the two, I agree the crazy edge isn't the nicest on my skin. The stainless doesn't offer the greatest shave, but with some work it might do a bit better, and it won't make me look like I survived an assassination attempt.

 

[Blank Blades.]

I've recently started using a straight razor. I just picked it up maybe a month ago, and it was mainly because I wanted to know for sure I could hone one if someone ever needed me to ( I do some sharpening on the side to supplement my cooking pay during the week). I got into wet shaving a year or two ago, so I figured even if I never have to hone anyone else's I still might enjoy having one.

I bought this ultra cheap thing for 12 bucks, made in Pakistan of some mystery steel. It definitely isn't carbon steel, at the same time it does seem to stain a bit easily for a stainless steel. However it will hold a good enough edge to shave. The grind wasn't well done, and the bevel looks a bit off because of it, but it's just cosmetic. George Washington "The First Mason President" Straight Razor in Orig. Box | eBay this thing but in blue. It was the cheapest razor the knife shop i work with had, that seemed like could still be shaved with, which is what I wanted. A bit of a challenge.

I was finishing on a razor asagi with a nagura progression, ending with clear water on the stone. Now I just got a piece of leather (well another one) that I'm putting white, and green compound on (white on the suede side, green on the smooth side). Using the strip with compound has taken it even to the next level now. Plus it makes the mirror finish look a little better.

Anyway... I didn't really have much of a point I guess. Just felt like sharing what got me here, and what I'm doing for my honing routine. Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on how i can do anything different while honing, or maybe for another cheap razor that would be cool.

 

[zizirex]

Just finished playing around with a Cheap Amazon 0.5 micron diamond compound on a DIY leather strop. it's much nicer to use instead of ChromeOx, cuts faster and less messy. it really helps bring out the edge from my Iwasaki Kamisori and Thiers Issard.

 

[kayman67]

You can go one level up with poly or cbn. Two levels up is uncomfortable for most people.

 

[pgugger]

After a few years into Japanese knives and a few months into Japanese woodworking tools, I have now made the plunge into the world Japanese razors (must have something to do with pandemic lockdowns!). Just got this 45 mm Iwasaki Kamisori from Aframes:

I haven't used it nor honed it yet, and I have never even used a straight razor before, but I like the craftsmanship, tradition, and the idea of having quality tools that can be used a lifetime.

I have skimmed this thread and seen talk of various honing routines... anyone use this method successfully on a kamisori? Simple Straight Razor Honing.

Any other thoughts, warnings, suggestions before I put this thing to work?

 

[Moooza]

After a few years into Japanese knives and a few months into Japanese woodworking tools, I have now made the plunge into the world Japanese razors (must have something to do with pandemic lockdowns!). Just got this 45 mm Iwasaki Kamisori from Aframes:

Wonderful! There is nothing like an Iwasaki. I went the other way, from Iwasaki, to all of his apprentices.

The only suggestion I'd give is to consider removing the handle wrap - if it gets wet, it can cause rust.