Moritaka Ishime knives. How good is their food release property?
- Thread starter ValeryD
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I don't have that brand, but I bought this knife with a similar finish specifically to help with food release. I regret to say that it does absolutely nothing to help with food release. In fact, i don't think any kind of grind actually does anything for wet foods like cucumbers, potatoes, etc.
No noticeable benefit to food release that I can tell. More difficult to clean in some applications.
You are too pessimistic, Jack. I know this for sure and several knives on our kitchen prove me right.
These knives are Takeda AS. And a NAS when I had one too.
And four more knives:
1. 105mm Petty noname made of Aogami-2.
2. 180mm Moritaka Nakiri AS.
3. Single edge 165mm Nakiri noname (native J knife)
4. Single edge 170mm noname (native J knife).
But all of them have good to almost perfect food release not due to hammered or Ishime relief, but due to geometry of their blades.
In your case, I belive the problem is that the main bevel is way too wide/high. If it will be say, 10-12mm, the food release will be significantly better especially if the bevel is slightly convex (like in Takeda knives).
Try to cut a larger diameter food, say, a carrot D=50-55mm, apple D>50mm and cucumbers, potatoes, etc. If the height of the main bevel of your knife will be 1/3 or less of a food diameter then the food release should be OK. And slices should be not too thin, do them 3 - 4mm and if it work, try thinner and you will see where the limit is for a gived product.
For good food release of smaller diameters (heights) products we need a narrower main bevel - 1/3 or less of a fproduct diameter/height. This ratio is important for a good food release. A hammered surface (Ishime) can only improve the situation - the main bevel can be somewhat wider and has a lesser angle.
BTW. Still very interested to hear from Moritaka Ishime users!
These knives are Takeda AS. And a NAS when I had one too.
And four more knives:
1. 105mm Petty noname made of Aogami-2.
2. 180mm Moritaka Nakiri AS.
3. Single edge 165mm Nakiri noname (native J knife)
4. Single edge 170mm noname (native J knife).
But all of them have good to almost perfect food release not due to hammered or Ishime relief, but due to geometry of their blades.
In your case, I belive the problem is that the main bevel is way too wide/high. If it will be say, 10-12mm, the food release will be significantly better especially if the bevel is slightly convex (like in Takeda knives).
Try to cut a larger diameter food, say, a carrot D=50-55mm, apple D>50mm and cucumbers, potatoes, etc. If the height of the main bevel of your knife will be 1/3 or less of a food diameter then the food release should be OK. And slices should be not too thin, do them 3 - 4mm and if it work, try thinner and you will see where the limit is for a gived product.
For good food release of smaller diameters (heights) products we need a narrower main bevel - 1/3 or less of a fproduct diameter/height. This ratio is important for a good food release. A hammered surface (Ishime) can only improve the situation - the main bevel can be somewhat wider and has a lesser angle.
BTW. Still very interested to hear from Moritaka Ishime users!
This is my main interest - to understand how much this finish (Ishime) helps for food release in these knives.
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Can't speak to this one specifically but I've used quite a few different finishes including a couple pretty aggressive ones and have never really noticed them having much impact on release.
The best thing to help with food release is cutting technique. Grind is a pretty big factor but how and what you are cutting are the biggest factor. Some stuff just sticks
240mm kiritsuke that’s lost about 5-8mm of height.
I feel like the friction caused by the finish trumps the theoretical benefit of having “air spaces” potentiating food release.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Probably more suited for unpopular opinions thread, but I bet a teflon finish probably would help.
Not that I'd advertise for them. Ever since I discovered draw cuts my concern for food release has been significantly diminished.
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how about the angle of the wide bevel or thickness of the blade above the bevel? (for 2 sided, not single bevel blades) Do you have an opinion or measurements of your knives that have good food release? Particularly on potatoes and large onions.
Your post is the first I've noticed describing or trying to quantify the blade geometry and am really interested in this subject.
You can find answers and a lot of useful info in the thread "Food Release: Stiction and the Grind"
The most illustrative post is the post #65. You will immediately get a clue what is what.
I checked out those illustrations and all works exctly as shown on them. Exactly! No exceptions at all.
My Moritaka Kurouchi AS Nakiri 180mm has almost flat main bevels and a flat body. Bevels wide is about 12-14mm. Angle is about 7-8 degree. All slices of a carrot D=>40mm just fall from the blade. Same with potato slices of about the same or a bit larger diameter and thickness of 1/10" and more. I had Takeda Nakiri NAS 170mm and it's bevels were about 6mm wide. All carrot slices of 18mm and larger fall from the blade without exceptions too. Same with slices of cucomber, potatoe, redis etc.
So, even blades without S-grind can have good food release properties if their main bevels are not too wide and have appropriate angle and the blade is not too thick.
If sides of a blade are coated with a relief which decreases a sticktion, this definitely will help.
This was the reason why I asked about Moritaka Ishime blades,
Valery
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Thank you very much! cheers!
ModRQC
Just shutup n' grabbit!
You are pretty much answering your own question there. Moritaka Ischime won’t be better than your actual Moritaka KU. The geometry is what makes it work the way you describe.
The downside of low bevel geometry is separation generally. That’s why you have guys specializing in stuff like S grind or @Kippington chevron. Trying to make food release as good as a low bevel and performance nearer the laser kind. I’m oversimplifying the respective geometries of the latter, but just to get the idea.
Now if you think the Ischime finish would somehow have a Moritaka cross the bridge closer to a Takeda - say having sublime release on shallower carrots than 40mm and closer to 18mm - it won’t happen. That’s what @HumbleHomeCook was saying. Finish has little to do with food release unless when it can make it worse.
