Normal copy paper? That does seem fairly forgiving?
I'm kind of doing that at the moment, I only started testing cutting paper towel just to see if there's something I missed.
Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp
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I'm kind of doing that at the moment, I only started testing cutting paper towel just to see if there's something I missed.
FWIW, I'll outline how I minimise the burr. This is an amalgam of many different techniques that I have picked up and tried over the years. It’s certainly not the only way to deburr an edge.Yeah, so at the moment, I'm deburring with a stropping motion on the 6K diamond stone, then visually inspecting, and test cutting copy paper and repeating the stropping motion until I get something that's cutting the copy paper smoothly. This takes more time than raising a burr does.
After that, I'd probably just very lightly run the edge across the back of a non-scratch sponge like Jon does in his sharpening videos, but that's usually as part of washing after I've tested on the copy paper.
Most of my stropping motions are at a deliberately higher angle than the burr raising (and sometimes I'm probably over compensating with a higher angle than needed), to make sure I'm hitting the apex, but I guess it's possible I'm putting a microbevel on at that point. My strokes are edge trailing to start with, unless I get a really stubborn burr that frustrates me then I'll probably do one edge leading strokes. I still haven't got enough balls to try the Kippington trademark deburring method. But if that's going to get me a better outcome, then I'm happy to trial it (however nervously)
(Edited to provide more information in deburring method that I should have included the first time)
Once I have generated an apex on the coarsest stone in my progression, I then repeat the sharpening on the same stone with lighter and lighter levels of pressure. This abrades the burr. There is a good chance that you will feel (and maybe see) bits of burr break off during the lighter pressure stages. LOok at Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor) video on knifeplanet.net sharpening school (video number 3 IIRC) for a demonstration. I finish each stone with a couple of feather-light edge leading strokes.
I then move onto finer stones but only with light pressure, then a few feather-light edge leading strokes on each stone.
FWIW, I will Sharpen most often on a 1k Chosera, followed by a 3k Chosera (but I sometimes use Belgian Blue or 6K Naniwa diamond). But many different medium-fine conbos will work fine.
After my finest stone, I drag the edge gently through cork or hard felt.
I then repeat light pressure and feather-light edge leading strokes the last two stones, then drag through cork or felt again. This is a Dave Martell technique that lifted my edges that little bit further.
If you want to you can strop (cereal box cardboard is great for this) but this is definitely not necessary for a paper towel edge and I would not recommend it until you can make a nice edge with all of the steps before.
The alternative is to usenthe Kippington deburring method (search KKF for "Kippington deburring video). It feels 'wrong' the first time you do it, but it's much faster and easier, especially for high alloy steels. It results in an edge with a microbevel, so slightly less acute angle but it produces a perfectly sercvicible edge for kitchen use which is well deburred.
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Ta! I was a little surprised by how good that edge was tbh. I was testing out a new stone which turned out be absolutely first class.
And yep - normal notepad paper. If a knife is cutting that cleanly and easily then it's gonna be quite good enough for kitchen work (imo).
This is probably a good point too I think, I use overwhelmingly edge leading strokes during sharpening.
To that end @NameAlreadyTaken - this is my general approach, some of it may be irrelevant, but dunno if anything here might help as a method:
- I almost always use only one stone, apart from repair work or if the knife has never been sharpened before.
- They're usually natural, and they want to be fairly fast. Slow stones give you quite refined or polished edges.
- I use back and forth scrubbing (i.e. 50:50 trailing and leading) to raise the initial burr on each side.
- After that my strokes are pretty much exclusively edge leading, and a lot are full length of the edge. Gradual reduction of pressure to minimise the burr.
- That's what allows you to do one stone progressions with some types of natural stone, because they respond more acutely to pressure than synths. If using synths you might want to move to a higher grit stone as well pressure reduction.
- You may well still flip small burrs during this, which isn't a problem. But make sure to switch sides immediately if you do, don't want it bigger than it has to be.
- In a way the majority of the time I spend sharpening is actually something akin to deburring.
- So you need to be constantly checking the edge with your fingers, after pretty much every stroke. Get to know what even the tiniest of burrs feels like.
- If you make a mistake with your angle control or scuff the edge in some way; go back and raise the initial burrs again.
- Thumb nail test. Once you've calibrated the feel of this it's an extremely accurate way of telling how good an edge is. This is what I use to judge an edge, you just can't show it in a video like you can paper towel.
- Strop on paper or cardboard. I find this preserves teeth to a greater extent than leather.
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Many ways to skin cats obviously, that's just my method, but it certainly works for me.
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On the coarsest stone — I have a 320 or 220 in mind — you can't expect to get entirely rid of a VG-10 burr. You may minimise it. This is obvious when, even with the lightest touch, it doesn’t get smaller but only changes sides. You have reached what the coarse stone can achieve. Time to go to a finer one. I wouldn't move to the finer stone before. You don't want to abrade a full 320 burr on a 1k stone. It is likely to damage the 1k edge you're aiming for.
On the next stone, a 1k for instance, or a 800, you may start by light scrubbing motions. The bevels have already met with the first stone. We're only looking for some refinement, not for removing a lot of steel. You may soon start the deburring on the finer stone in the same way as I suggested, in sections, with light, short, edge leading strokes. Again: the idea of a short stroke is to do enough to abrade the burr, without doing too much and raise a new one. Better do two or three short strokes if needed than one long that is likely to be to much. Your journey with this second and next stones will be very short, compared to the coarsest one. Again, go to the next stone only if you can't reduce the burr any further.
It may be helpful to wait some time after working on your coarsest stone. Especially when you did perform serious changes in the geometry as when you change a 25° convexed bevel in a straight 12°, go on next day. Tomorrow you verify your last deburring on the coarsest stone before going on with the finer stone. At every stage, a sharpie and a loupe are very helpful to make sure you're reaching the very edge, and don't stay a tad behind it, causing wondering and frustration about a remaining burr which just hasn't been touched.
@Luftmensch did an hht challenge off a 120 grit stone I believe.. give deburring a shot at the end of each stone, especially down low - trying to get to a clean (albeit unrefined) edge at each step will improve results greatly.
I agree that knives with less height feel the wobble more than tall knives.
Usually at higher grits you can see a visual difference where the stone has done work. Say for example a 5k stone will leave the steel more polished than a 1k, as well as a difference in scratch pattern and depth. The caveat is if your edge bevel is tiny, it’s a little harder to see. A change in edge feel and how it goes through test media is my indicator.
PappaG
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My experience is different. I could have a really clean cutting edge, but if my knife is thick behind the edge, it never really goes to paper towel all that well. Specifically for paper towel it’s more about having a well-balanced cutting edge as well as thin behind the edge knife.
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Sure, but the most likely cause, especially with VG-10 and the used techniques is in the remaining burr.
Yeah, so at the moment, I'm deburring with a stropping motion on the 6K diamond stone, then visually inspecting, and test cutting copy paper and repeating the stropping motion until I get something that's cutting the copy paper smoothly. This takes more time than raising a burr does.
After that, I'd probably just very lightly run the edge across the back of a non-scratch sponge like Jon does in his sharpening videos, but that's usually as part of washing after I've tested on the copy paper.
Most of my stropping motions are at a deliberately higher angle than the burr raising (and sometimes I'm probably over compensating with a higher angle than needed), to make sure I'm hitting the apex, but I guess it's possible I'm putting a microbevel on at that point. My strokes are edge trailing to start with, unless I get a really stubborn burr that frustrates me then I'll probably do one edge leading strokes. I still haven't got enough balls to try the Kippington trademark deburring method. But if that's going to get me a better outcome, then I'm happy to trial it (however nervously
(Edited to provide more information in deburring method that I should have included the first time)
I’m no expert, but I get better edge feedback from newsprint than copy paper. I do a very slow exaggerated slicing motion (pulling the blade through more than pushing down) while listening and feeling. Essentially I’m running the edge lightly against the paper. If there’s a slight hitch then I know there’s likely a bit of a foil edge still there and if so I might do a few more passes on the final stone or if I’m feeling lazy I’ll just run the edge through some cork a couple times.
The paper towel thing is cool and impressive and all, and if I’m careful and putting the effort in then I can get a decent cut. But usually I don’t bother getting to the point where I’m cutting cleanly through; as others have said it doesn’t feel any different on food (not to me anyway, at my moderate skill level). Anyway, echoing what others have said being “careful” for me means carefully watching my angle and more thorough deburring than I might typically do followed by a couple more light edge-leading strokes on the final stone.
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Like others have said, I deburr on each stone I'm using. My practice is very much like what @Nemo explained.
If you're not happy with your edge straight off a 6k with paper, then I'd personally say you need to go back to the 1k and start over. Deburr there and test the edge on paper. That should easily slice. If not, there's no point in progressing. You've found your first weak point.
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For reference, and granted this is simple carbon, but this cleaver was slicing receipt paper straight off a Norton Crystolon coarse which is somewhere around 120 edge.
It was a little ragged and I wouldn't expect it to cut paper towel but the apex was established. No strops, just the Crystolon.
It was a little ragged and I wouldn't expect it to cut paper towel but the apex was established. No strops, just the Crystolon.
big D
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You may perhaps try on the thinnest behind the edge knife you own, sharpen it by having it flat on the stone. What is referred to as a zero grind. See then, if you can cut paper towel. Then put on your final edge bevel.
Case_D
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My debrurring strokes are just normal back and forth strokes, so edge leading then edge trailing. The actual stropping strokes are edge trailing only
A few comments:
You don’t need to deburr with each stone. The burr gets smaller with higher grits.
Try finishing with edge leading strokes at the sharpening angle. You can use a loaded strop then go to leading edge on the 6K to put some teeth back on it without making a burr. Or skip the strop and finish with edge leading alternating sides every stroke or two.
Last, consider a 3K stone. 6K is too fine for many steels.
You don’t need to deburr with each stone. The burr gets smaller with higher grits.
Try finishing with edge leading strokes at the sharpening angle. You can use a loaded strop then go to leading edge on the 6K to put some teeth back on it without making a burr. Or skip the strop and finish with edge leading alternating sides every stroke or two.
Last, consider a 3K stone. 6K is too fine for many steels.
Hanmak17
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One quick tip I'd add to the discussion is adding some form of leather strop to your process. I was shocked how poorly I was deburring when I first introduced the strop into my routine. It became immediately evident where and to what degree I had failed to deburr after sharpening.
Now I employ 4-5 steps to finish my sharpening sessions.
1. Light edge leading strokes to initially deburr.
2. Couple slices through cork
3. Check edges with fingers, validate by stropping. If a burr remains, the burr will pull on the leather and leave a faint white stripe.
4. Repeat process (#1-4), until burr is completely removed.
5. Final step is paper towel cuts. Similar to strop, the towell will identify any inconsistency along the new edge.
Now I employ 4-5 steps to finish my sharpening sessions.
1. Light edge leading strokes to initially deburr.
2. Couple slices through cork
3. Check edges with fingers, validate by stropping. If a burr remains, the burr will pull on the leather and leave a faint white stripe.
4. Repeat process (#1-4), until burr is completely removed.
5. Final step is paper towel cuts. Similar to strop, the towell will identify any inconsistency along the new edge.
Thanks for sharing Nemo.
That's certainly a variable that I hadn't considered, being pressure during deburring. I might need to ease back on the pressure. Certainly something to try.
Ta! I was a little surprised by how good that edge was tbh. I was testing out a new stone which turned out be absolutely first class.
And yep - normal notepad paper. If a knife is cutting that cleanly and easily then it's gonna be quite good enough for kitchen work (imo).
This is probably a good point too I think, I use overwhelmingly edge leading strokes during sharpening.
To that end @NameAlreadyTaken - this is my general approach, some of it may be irrelevant, but dunno if anything here might help as a method:
- I almost always use only one stone, apart from repair work or if the knife has never been sharpened before.
- They're usually natural, and they want to be fairly fast. Slow stones give you quite refined or polished edges.
- I use back and forth scrubbing (i.e. 50:50 trailing and leading) to raise the initial burr on each side.
- After that my strokes are pretty much exclusively edge leading, and a lot are full length of the edge. Gradual reduction of pressure to minimise the burr.
- That's what allows you to do one stone progressions with many natural stones, because they respond more acutely to pressure than synths. If using synths you might want to move to a higher grit stone as well pressure reduction.
- You may well still flip small burrs during this, which isn't a problem. But make sure to switch sides immediately if you do, don't want it bigger than it has to be.
- In a way the majority of the time I spend sharpening is actually something akin to deburring.
- So you need to be constantly checking the edge with your fingers, after pretty much every stroke. Get to know what even the tiniest of burrs feels like.
- If you make a mistake with your angle control or scuff the edge in some way; go back and raise the initial burrs again.
- Thumb nail test. Once you've calibrated the feel of this it's an extremely accurate way of telling how good an edge is. This is what I use to judge an edge, you just can't show it in a video like you can paper towel.
- Strop on paper or cardboard. I find this preserves teeth to a greater extent than leather.
--------
Many ways to skin cats obviously, that's just my method and it certainly works for me.
Thanks mate. I'm trying to find a routine that works well with the stones and steels that I've got, so all suggestions are welcomed.
So I definitely need to trial the light pressure edge leading strokes to see if I get more effective deburring.
I'm guessing that all of this is essentially happening at the same angle? I.e. you're not increasing the angle slightly for the deburring?
I definitely need to trial all of this on the 1K, and then only add in the 6K after I get decent results on the 1K.
Thanks! I'll give the short lightweight edge leading strokes a try.
Yes, I'll need to give the sharpie and microscope a go too for these deburring strokes.
Good point. I probably need to start by thinning the petty again to confirm that it's good to go at a low angle before sharpening (as it has been a while).
I can't remember the last time I bought a newspaper, but that sounds like a good enough excuse to start
Yeah, I think part of being "careful" for me is actually about being slow. I remember when I started sharpening these stainless knives on some (much) cheaper stones, I was putting a lot of speed and pressure into the sharpening, thinking that I'd be done quicker. What I ended up with was just lack luster result.
Now I've got the diamond stones, they're so abrasive, it's hard not to raise a burr, so my focus is the reverse, trying to slow down and hope that my hand doesn't jitter a tiny bit to impact the angle.
Yeah, good point. It does sound like I've got to go back to 1K school and only graduate to 6K school once I've got consistency of deburring at 1K.
Nice work work! That's something to aim for.
That's a good idea. I'll add that to the list.
Okay, that's interesting. I'm guessing your stropping strokes are only after you have fully deburred then?
Good point. I'll give that a shot.
I've got a kangaroo tail leather strop loaded with 1 micron polycrystalline diamond spray, which I can certainly add back into the routine if needed.
I guess if I don't "need" it to create a good product cutting edge, then I was probably thinking that I could drop it and try stropping on the 6K, which is kind of how all of this started in a way, as I was getting serviceable edges for cutting food, but I wasn't clean slicing paper towel like the pros in the videos do.
So it kind of sounds like my problem might be a bit earlier in the process, so I'll just try using and deburring just on the 1K and see what my results are there.
Do watch the knifeplanet.net sharpening school vid if you haven't already.
I should add that after the feather-light edge leading strokes, I do a feather-light deburring stroke along the length of the edge.
Yeah, I watched them all a while ago, but will rewatch them again for the pointers on deburring. Thanks.
All I can suggest is to stick with it. Try some different techniques. With time things will improve. Couple things to remember is that the first stone is where most of the work is done. And learn from mistakes
Try running the edge over a microfibre cloth or toilet paper, as if you were wiping it off. Little burr bits will catch if they’re there, giving you another test to verify with.
Any good data gathered is super helpful in determining how it’s going. Best of luck!
