Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp

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I was cutting some paper towel to post in this thread when I decided to test the yanagiba I polished last night. It cut about as well as a spoon.

So I of course suspected my sharpening (1k-2k-suita-asagi) and ran my thumb along the back side. Man I feel dumb.

The cutting feel as my thumb began to bleed was really similar to how it feels to cut myself (accidentally) with my safety razor using Feather blades. So don’t think paper is the end all, be all of tests. And don’t use your thumb.

Side note: nakiri does just fine on the test and in that case the paper towel test reflects actual performance, especially in onion. So ymmv.
 
The stropping to remove the burr is the key. I use a denim belt technique with metal polish I learned here:

Burr Removal – part 1

It just works... without a lot of effort... and gives a shaving sharp edge more than sharp enough for any kitchen knife task. The micro convex on the edge also helps edge retention.
gen_6ket_flitzden_03.jpg
 
BazookaJoe said:
The stropping to remove the burr is the key. I use a denim belt technique with metal polish I learned here:

Burr Removal – part 1

It just works... without a lot of effort... and gives a shaving sharp edge more than sharp enough for any kitchen knife task. The micro convex on the edge also helps edge retention.View attachment 227806
Click to expand...
It will certainly work with a carbon, and certainly not with VG-10.
 
BazookaJoe said:
I don't have any VG-10, but it works with SKD, R2, Ginsan and whatever the stainless is in my ShiBaZi Zuo F208-2 cleaver. ;)
Click to expand...
VG-10 is indeed a special case. The burr remains strongly attached to the edge. No other option than patiently abrading it, with the lightest touch, through the entire progression. No shortcuts, I'm afraid.
 
Okay, I've had my first detention in 1K school, and here's where I'm at.

The changes:
- I've thinned the petty at a really low angle (not zero though), so hopefully it should be thin enough behind the edge.
- I've gone back to using just the 1K diamond stone, on the advice of I should be able to replicate the behaviour here (and one less stone means it's quicker)
- I've raised a burr at a reasonable angle (although I don't really know exactly what angle that is, I'm just trying to keep it consistent).
- Then I've eased off the pressure considerably for deburring strokes.
- I first tried edge trailing strokes much like I was doing previously.
- Then I tried edge leading strokes for deburring, like was frequently recommended in this thread.
- I've also tried to keep the angle the same between deburring and burr raising, but to be honest, the margins for error here are so small, with such a short knife, that I'm not 100% confident that I've hit the mark.
 
Now just for completeness, I wanted to be a bit more objective about what the outcome measures of my deburring was, so here's some kind of crappy photos that I took through the microscope:

After raising a burr, but before deburring:
afterraisingaburr.jpg


After attempting to deburr using light pressure edge trailing strokes:

afteredgetrailingstropping.jpg

You can clearly see the burr still attached.

After using light pressure edge leading strokes:

afteredgeleadingstropping.jpg

The focus isn't really crisp because I'm holding a microscope on top of a knife, and balancing an phone on top of that, but you can clearly see that the burr is now gone. There's a couple of artefacts on the edge that kind of look like they might be remnant burr, but that's just the light and the focus of the lens.
 
Firstly, a massive thanks for your assistance so far!

Any thoughts on things to try next?

- I'm a convert for edge leading soft pressure strokes, that's me from now on, just based on the visual feedback alone.
- I'm guessing it's possible that I'm putting a microbevel on when doing the edge leading deburring if my angle is not consistent?
- Is it likely that the size of the apex is too thick to cut paper? If so, is there anything other than lowering the sharpening and deburring angle that I should be doing?
- If you look at the microscope photos, it does look like the edge is a bit jaggered, and toothy. Would that contribute to tearing a soft medium like paper towel?
- Aside from thin notepad paper, are there any other in between papers that I should be trying to see where it taps out?
 
M1k3 said:
I'd try a few more very light edge leading strokes, with the stone clean of any loose grit or swarf. Some additional refinement.
Click to expand...
So that’s a good idea.
I should have mentioned I cleaned the stone in between deburring as it gets loaded pretty quick. How you see it in the video is how it was when I was stropping / deburring.
 
NameAlreadyTaken said:
Firstly, a massive thanks for your assistance so far!

Any thoughts on things to try next?

- I'm a convert for edge leading soft pressure strokes, that's me from now on, just based on the visual feedback alone.
- I'm guessing it's possible that I'm putting a microbevel on when doing the edge leading deburring if my angle is not consistent?
- Is it likely that the size of the apex is too thick to cut paper? If so, is there anything other than lowering the sharpening and deburring angle that I should be doing?
- If you look at the microscope photos, it does look like the edge is a bit jaggered, and toothy. Would that contribute to tearing a soft medium like paper towel?
- Aside from thin notepad paper, are there any other in between papers that I should be trying to see where it taps out?
Click to expand...
I would be surprised if a full deburring of VG-10 was achieved with a 1k.
 
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NameAlreadyTaken said:
Thanks mate. I'm trying to find a routine that works well with the stones and steels that I've got, so all suggestions are welcomed.
Click to expand...


This is very much it, yep. Everything I know about sharpening has come from reading lots of posts and advice from people here (Benuser, Stringer, Ian, Nemo, & loads of others), and amalgamating it into a process I find easy and gives me good results. Though other people will find different methods work better, while still using the same kinds of thinking. It really is most about practice and refining whatever works best for you.

Though I've just clocked that you're trying to do this on a VG10 Petty, and I do certainly admire your ambition... but don't try to jump the highest hurdle first eh! Nice thin-ground aogami gyuto is what you want. Then you'll easily be able to make all sorts of smug and impressive paper towel videos to post here later. ;)
 
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cotedupy said:
This is very much it, yep. Everything I know about sharpening has come from reading lots of posts and advice from people here (Benuser, Stringer, Ian, Nemo, & loads of others), and amalgamating it into a process I find easy and gives me good results. Though other people will find different methods work better, while still using the same kinds of thinking. It really is most about practice and refining whatever works best for you.

Though I've just clocked that you're trying to do this on a VG10 Petty, and I do certainly admire your ambition... but don't try to jump the highest hurdle first eh! Nice thin-ground aogami gyuto is what you want. Then you'll easily be able to make all sorts of smug and impressive paper towel videos to post here later. ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks mate.
Yeah, perhaps I’m a little foolhardy.
I’ll try next with a much taller gyuto that’s not VG10 (although still stainless CPM-154) as I haven’t gone simple carbon yet. I do find it easier to sharpen that at lower angles just because of the added blade height, and I’m going to be interested in how the edge leading deburring works on that guy.

Thanks for your support!
 
Benuser said:
I would be surprised if a full deburring of VG-10 was achieved with a 1k.
Click to expand...
So you’re thinking is the burr is still attached? Or are we talking about like micro fragments that are smaller than the grit size of the 1K?
I.e. if I was to do a refinement of say really light edge leading strokes on the 6K that might abrade more of any burr because the grit size is smaller, hence it’s able to more effectively get any micro fragments?
Just trying to understand what you mean, and what I could try.
 
I'm quite sure the burr is still there. Never seen one achieving a complete deburring with VG-10 on a 1k stone. I don't know whether it's a classical one sided burr, or it has moved on top of the edge — a so called wire edge — but I wouldn't try using the knife yet with any board contact: the burr will soon break, and leave a moon scape kind of edge behind, and all your work will have been vain.
On your 6k you will probably notice the existing burr within a few strokes. Keep the same angle as you've used so far. When changing stones it can be helpful you check whether you're reaching the very edge and don't remain behind it. I use a red sharpie to see if the bevel is entirely clean. You don't want debris to accumulate on top of the edge: they will form a wire edge, which is quite common with this steel. Scary sharp, but failing with the first board contact.
 
Benuser said:
I'm quite sure the burr is still there. Never seen one achieving a complete deburring with VG-10 on a 1k stone. I don't know whether it's a classical one sided burr, or it has moved on top of the edge — a so called wire edge — but I wouldn't try using the knife yet with any board contact: the burr will soon break, and leave a moon scape kind of edge behind, and all your work will have been vain.
On your 6k you will probably notice the existing burr within a few strokes. Keep the same angle as you've used so far. When changing stones it can be helpful you check whether you're reaching the very edge and don't remain behind it. I use a red sharpie to see if the bevel is entirely clean. You don't want debris to accumulate on top of the edge: they will form a wire edge, which is quite common with this steel. Scary sharp, but failing with the first board contact.
Click to expand...
Ahh okay. Thanks for the explanation.
So somewhat related, I have found deburring on these diamond stones to be much easier than my previous synths, which I’ve put down to it being a more consistent grit size and also harder and more abrasive.
I’m not saying that’s the full explanation for the difference between your expectation, and I’ll definitely try a progression on a higher grit up at 6K, but just explaining the characteristics of this stone.
 
NameAlreadyTaken said:
Ahh okay. Thanks for the explanation.
So somewhat related, I have found deburring on these diamond stones to be much easier than my previous synths, which I’ve put down to it being a more consistent grit size and also harder and more abrasive.
I’m not saying that’s the full explanation for the difference between your expectation, and I’ll definitely try a progression on a higher grit up at 6K, but just explaining the characteristics of this stone.
Click to expand...
I have no experience with diamond stones. Being more abrasive isn't exactly an advantage when deburring. Sure, the burr has to get abraded, but any stone can do so. More aggressive stones tend to create a new burr on the other side while abrading the old one. So it becomes a never ending story. Have a very light touch.
 
Benuser said:
I have no experience with diamond stones. Being more abrasive isn't exactly an advantage when deburring. Sure, the burr has to get abraded, but any stone can do so. More aggressive stones tend to create a new burr on the other side while abrading the old one. So it becomes a never ending story. Have a very light touch.
Click to expand...
Totally know what you mean now. Yes, I've found even the 6K raises a burr really quickly, which isn't always an asset. As per the photos, I've had much more success with the light pressure edge leading strokes, over my previous method of edge trailing.
I'll give a progression a try next detention session.
 
NameAlreadyTaken said:
Totally know what you mean now. Yes, I've found even the 6K raises a burr really quickly, which isn't always an asset. As per the photos, I've had much more success with the light pressure edge leading strokes, over my previous method of edge trailing.
I'll give a progression a try next detention session.
Click to expand...
That's rather a good sign that you've been able to get the burr so quickly. Just a remark though: still check with a sharpie and loupe. It happens quite often a burr is being raised before the very edge got reached. Checking may save you a lot of time and confusion.
 
Benuser said:
That's rather a good sign that you've been able to get the burr so quickly. Just a remark though: still check with a sharpie and loupe. It happens quite often a burr is being raised before the very edge got reached. Checking may save you a lot of time and confusion.
Click to expand...
Hmm. That’s a good idea, and not something that had occurred to me. Thanks!
 
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