Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Okay reporting back after day 2 of 1K detention.
(or maybe more correctly for those getting notifications for this thread: why is he still bothering)

So, most of this is inspired by @Benuser. Here's what I tried with the same petulant VG10 petty:

Coloured in the edge with red sharpie and then raised a burr with the 1K as per normal and took a look through the microscope to ensure that all the sharpie along the edge was gone (i.e. raised a burr and hit the edge).

No red sharpie in the picture is because I started my initial sharpening at a lower angle (clearly) and had to adjust to an angle to get it to hit the edge, which in the process removed nearly all of the sharpie, and was a bit of unscheduled thinning.
One thing that I've noticed with this pic is the burr is quite ragged with noticeably differing lengths in very short edge length distances.
Now this either meant that I didn't deburr properly yesterday and the extra length is from yesterday's burr despite getting a full workout in the kitchen today, or possibly more likely, is that the burr that I raised tonight was possibly a bit long and started flaking off while I was still raising a burr (accounting for the bits of longer foil and the bits of shorter foil perpendicular to the edge.
Any thoughts?

Next I repainted the sharpie along the edge only, and started deburring very feather lightly on the 1K with edge leading strokes (after the massive success of yesterday's detention).

Now this actually looks pretty clean, and you can notice in the right hand edge of the picture you can see the brownish / reddish sharpie still present as I was progressively stropping at gently increasing angles to try and hit the apex.

So at this point I did the same notepad paper test, and it was cutting as cleanly and easily as yesterday.
I did the paper towel cut test and it was tearing just like it was yesterday too.

So then I tried repainting with the sharpie and did a very gentle couple of edge leading strokes on the 6K for refinement:

Here you can see that the scratch pattern is a bit finer, and if I'm honest, I don't really get it, but the edge looks a little more jagged than it did in the 1K photo, but I wasn't really sampling the exact same spot on the knife so it might have always been like that, and my skills with the microscope and balancing my phone on top while I'm trying to focus both the phone and the microscope aren't really that crash hot, so there might be something lost in that as well.

So I repeated the notepad paper cut and it still cut as cleanly as before (so I'm guessing that I didn't round the edge too much with the refinement).
I did a paper towel cut test, and it was still tearing just like it was previously, but maybe 1 in every 20 cuts of the paper towel were fairly clean, not like fruit ninja clean, but it is a minor improvement on yesterday.

So next to try is a different steel (obviously).
I'll also need to try a different sharpie and different paper towel as I find the bullet point really annoying for painting a flat surface, and I just need to know if this cross weave stuff is doing me in (although I fully accept I won't like the result when it tears normal paper towel )

Any other thoughts or suggestions??

 

[Benuser]

How about those faint paint traces close to the edge on the second picture? You can't just look from the side, or you are likely to cause a wire edge — that nasty burr on top.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

That’s really interesting. I didn’t notice that with my eyes on the microscope but that’s a damn good point.
Maybe I need a fluorescent colour to make it clearer for me to see.
It’s not evident in the 6K pic though?
Or do you think the light reflecting off it might obscure the sharpie?

 

[mengwong]

I know you’re already juggling a lot, but it might be useful to get an edge-on look at the apex:

As an existence proof that VG10 can cut it, here is an OOTB Hitohira NM VG10 130mm Santoku

 

[Benuser]

That’s really interesting. I didn’t notice that with my eyes on the microscope but that’s a damn good point.
Maybe I need a fluorescent colour to make it clearer for me to see.
It’s not evident in the 6K pic though?
Or do you think the light reflecting off it might obscure the sharpie?

I don't see it on the 6k. Perhaps some convexing has taken place. I would repaint and repeat the last stage of the 1k, and indeed have a look as @mengwong suggested.
VG-10 comes scary sharp fresh from the stones, dulls quickly with a remaining sharpness that's perfectly fine in Western cuisine and stays almost forever.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

@NameAlreadyTaken very nice stuff! I'm a "why and how" guy and I'm really enjoying reading your thought process and desire to understand what is happening and then adjust to those inputs.

 

[cotedupy]

Did I imagine it @NameAlreadyTaken or did you ask somewhere in this thread about intermediary tests as encouraging signs of progress...?

Anyway here a couple: First is cigarette paper (or 'skins' as we call them in da 'hood). Second, perhaps marginally more tricky, is a bit of folded receipt paper standing up:

They both require fine and precise apexes, but maybe not the level of teeth combined with that, that paper towel does. Nevertheless if you can do both of those then you're not a million miles away. This isn't quite as clean and effortless as the video I posted earlier in the thread, but it's not too bad:

 

[Rangen]

Hattori VG-10 is surprisingly tractable, much less of a pain to sharpen than my other VG-10. No idea why, but I'm not the only one to experience this.

 

[Rangen]

So then I tried repainting with the sharpie and did a very gentle couple of edge leading strokes on the 6K for refinement:

View attachment 228045

Here you can see that the scratch pattern is a bit finer, and if I'm honest, I don't really get it, but the edge looks a little more jagged than it did in the 1K photo, but I wasn't really sampling the exact same spot on the knife so it might have always been like that, and my skills with the microscope and balancing my phone on top while I'm trying to focus both the phone and the microscope aren't really that crash hot, so there might be something lost in that as well.

So I repeated the notepad paper cut and it still cut as cleanly as before (so I'm guessing that I didn't round the edge too much with the refinement).
I did a paper towel cut test, and it was still tearing just like it was previously, but maybe 1 in every 20 cuts of the paper towel were fairly clean, not like fruit ninja clean, but it is a minor improvement on yesterday.

So next to try is a different steel (obviously).
I'll also need to try a different sharpie and different paper towel as I find the bullet point really annoying for painting a flat surface, and I just need to know if this cross weave stuff is doing me in (although I fully accept I won't like the result when it tears normal paper towel )

Any other thoughts or suggestions??

Assuming that last picture is not misleading, what you've got there looks to me like a burr. You can see the discontinuity between what is happening at the very edge, and the more orderly scratches a small distance away from the edge. At the very top, yes, that could be a jagged edge, just not enough time on the 6000 to have any edge-smoothing effect. But lower down, you've got what looks like a ragged, fragile, thin line of metal at the edge.

The picture makes it a bit hard to tell, but how it appears to me is, left to right: a burr, then a narrow area of coarser scratches, then a large area of finer scratches overlaid on coarser scratches. IOW, it look as though your fine stone did not reach to the edge in this section of the knife.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

I don't see it on the 6k. Perhaps some convexing has taken place. I would repaint and repeat the last stage of the 1k, and indeed have a look as @mengwong suggested.
VG-10 comes scary sharp fresh from the stones, dulls quickly with a remaining sharpness that's perfectly fine in Western cuisine and stays almost forever.

Cool, so just so I’m 100% clear, what I do from that point at 1K where there’s still a small burr attached to the apex, even though the sides of the apex are clear of sharpie is I continue with the featherweight edge leading strokes at the same angle with the aim of reducing the width of the shoulders of the apex (which I’m guessing are currently very wide and / or conceded and are preventing contact of the stropping angle with the apex)?
Or at that point do I need to increase the angle of the stropping motion to be able to hit the apex and keep the convexing?
Just trying to get a mental picture of my game plan for tonight.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

I know you’re already juggling a lot, but it might be useful to get an edge-on look at the apex:
View attachment 228047

As an existence proof that VG10 can cut it, here is an OOTB Hitohira NM VG10 130mm Santoku

Thanks mate. I’ll give the look a shot, I’m just not sure how well this hand held microscope will go on something like an edge that doesn’t have a flat supporting surface.
I’m up for a challenge though!

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

@NameAlreadyTaken very nice stuff! I'm a "why and how" guy and I'm really enjoying reading your thought process and desire to understand what is happening and then adjust to those inputs.

Thanks mate. I’ve read a heap of material and watched so much YouTube on this stuff, you’d think that I should know what’s happening, but the theory doesn’t really “click” until I experience it. There’s something very tactile about the deburring that the words themselves don’t communicate to someone who hasn’t had that experience yet.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Did I imagine it @NameAlreadyTaken or did you ask somewhere in this thread about intermediary tests as encouraging signs of progress...?

Anyway here a couple: First is cigarette paper (or 'skins' as we call them in da 'hood). Second, perhaps marginally more tricky, is a bit of folded receipt paper standing up:


View attachment 228061


They both require fine and precise apexes, but maybe not the level of teeth combined with that, that paper towel does. Nevertheless if you can do both of those then you're not a million miles away. This isn't quite as clean and effortless as the video I posted earlier in the thread, but it's not too bad:

View attachment 228062

Awesome! Something else for the shopping list down da hood.
And I recognise that type of paper towel (although different dealer, sorry, retail establishment).
I’ll give that a crack. I think on reflection overnight my convexing must be making it increasingly difficult to be hitting the apex so my refinement needs work.
It’s also making me more curious to try the trademark Kippington deburring method once I get a feel for it the more conventional way.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Assuming that last picture is not misleading, what you've got there looks to me like a burr. You can see the discontinuity between what is happening at the very edge, and the more orderly scratches a small distance away from the edge. At the very top, yes, that could be a jagged edge, just not enough time on the 6000 to have any edge-smoothing effect. But lower down, you've got what looks like a ragged, fragile, thin line of metal at the edge.

The picture makes it a bit hard to tell, but how it appears to me is, left to right: a burr, then a narrow area of coarser scratches, then a large area of finer scratches overlaid on coarser scratches. IOW, it look as though your fine stone did not reach to the edge in this section of the knife.

Oh wow.
Well am I glad I bought that microscope!
You know I wouldn’t have been able to see that if you hadn’t have pointed it out. But man, I can’t unsee it now.
So I’m both cases both the 1K and the 6K I was probably stopping the refinement too early before I had successfully hit the apex (or indeed refined the coarse scratches just behind the apex)?
So is it just continue with the feather weight edge leading strokes at the same angle to essentially thin the width of the edge, until I end up hitting the apex?
Or do I need to raise the angle up a bit to hit the apex because of existing convexing?
I’m guessing the convexing is an artefact of my freehand sharpening not having the same millimeter precision for angle consistency?

 

[Benuser]

I think it is better to go back to 1k, paint it again and undo the convexing until you've really reached the very edge. You want to avoid to have an upper part — the apex — that only touched the 6k, what would be the consequence of further convexing. Aim for now for straight bevels.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

I think it is better to go back to 1k, paint it again and undo the convexing until you've really reached the very edge. You want to avoid to have an upper part — the apex — that only touched the 6k, what would be the consequence of further convexing. Aim for now for straight bevels.

Cool. I’ll give that a crack tonight.

 

[mengwong]

BTW, regarding the Sharpie trick, I want to make a note for the future – this is probably not helpful to you right now, but before I forget …

When we get to micron level, Sharpie ink is pretty thick and tends to delaminate from the apex. I know in the above photos you can see a bit of red so that's not a problem here, but in my case, I had black Sharpie so it didn't show as clearly, just looked like scratches.

So instead of Sharpie I have recently been convexing with SG16k which delivers a distinctive mirrorlike polish, and then I go back down to 1k or whatever I originally came to do. The scratch patterns are so different that it's easy to see that I'm not properly apexing, because a tiny zone of 16k edge bevel is still visible between my thinning/sharpening, and the apex. So that's my method.

The other thing people do is change directions between grits, so you can distinguish the scratches from one stone vs another.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

BTW, regarding the Sharpie trick, I want to make a note for the future – this is probably not helpful to you right now, but before I forget …

When we get to micron level, Sharpie ink is pretty thick and tends to delaminate from the apex. I know in the above photos you can see a bit of red so that's not a problem here, but in my case, I had black Sharpie so it didn't show as clearly, just looked like scratches.

So instead of Sharpie I have recently been convexing with SG16k which delivers a distinctive mirrorlike polish, and then I go back down to 1k or whatever I originally came to do. The scratch patterns are so different that it's easy to see that I'm not properly apexing, because a tiny zone of 16k edge bevel is still visible between my thinning/sharpening, and the apex. So that's my method.

The other thing people do is change directions between grits, so you can distinguish the scratches from one stone vs another.

That’s a good idea.
How do you rig up a microscope to look top down at the apex?

 

[mengwong]

I wedge the knife edge up between convenient heavy items on my desk. I only do this because I lack a proper clamp. Or, perhaps I should say I am left to my own de-vises?

Then I balance the USB microscope on top of the edge and fiddle with focus. And then I pivot the scope, while it touches the edge, to capture the full range of angles.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

I wedge the knife edge up between convenient heavy items on my desk. I only do this because I lack a proper clamp. Or, perhaps I should say I am left to my own de-vises?

Then I balance the USB microscope on top of the edge and fiddle with focus. And then I pivot the scope, while it touches the edge, to capture the full range of angles.

Good idea. Maybe I try and wedge it between books or something.
My microscope is just a hand held optical one so to take pics I’ve got to hold it in place and balance the phone to get the right focal length, which is suboptimal, but it’s got me this far!

 

[cotedupy]

And I recognise that type of paper towel (although different dealer, sorry, retail establishment).

I think this is Sainsburys own brand stuff form memory, so yes as you say - a different retailer, but may well all be made in the same factory in China for all I know. So just in case I would say - avoid this stuff, it's pretty cheap, flimsy, and difficult to cut. It doesn't make a massive amount of difference tbh, but slightly posher, thicker versions are marginally easier.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

One of these guys comes in handy around my place for all kinds of things.

https://www.amazon.com/Small-Workbe...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
Not sturdy enough for too much aggressive work but a great third hand.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Before I start my detention report, I was already buoyed by some feedback from the Mrs this morning (after day 2 detention but before day 3 detention): "what have you done to the knife? It's just taken a chunk out of the chopping board!". Obviously the user of the knife had nothing to do with it, and it was clearly the knife that became animated and started whittling down my chopping board surface. But it did seem like it was sharper in use after day 2 detention.


Okay, on to the report from night 3 of 1K detention.

Changes since yesterday:
Common paper towel variety purchased
Orange chisel tipped sharpie purchased (this was tested as the most visually iconic colour of the pack of coloured sharpies that I am now hiding from my kids lest they start drawing on the walls)
"Skins" purchased from "da hood" (I only had to get one gang tat and spray paint the side of a train)
Receipt paper purchased, which in itself generated a receipt, so I guess that's a win win.

Okay, so raised a burr on the 1K as per normal:

Here you can see that there's bits of the burr already flaking off, so I probably raised a bit more of a burr than I needed, but angle wise, I was doing less unscheduled thinning than last night, so that was a plus.

Then came a painting with the orange sharpie, and attempting to deburr on the 1K using feather light edge leading strokes:

Here you can see the orange sharpie much more clearly than yesterday, but again, the same problem of not hitting the apex.

So that took ages for me to get to hit the apex, trying various things, but essentially just aiming to deburr on the 1K using feather light edge leading strokes at the same angle as the burr was raised.

A lot of backwards and forwards between the sharpie, stone, microscope, rinse and repeat.

Finally though, we got to something that looked more like this:

Left side after deburring on the 1K. And for the record any orangey haze here is the reflection of the light on the camera lens, not visible to the naked eye (I knew to keep an eye out for that from last night.

That right side looks as if the edge is really toothy, which I guess it might be, but to be honest, the light being reflected off the different angles could be making that look worse than it is.

Then I tried to take a photo of the edge front on like @mengwong suggested, which I've got to be honest, is a pretty tough / scary thing to attempt

Now here it kind of looks like some kind of astronomical event, but the sparkling that you can see both above and below the apex is light bouncing off the shoulders of the apex itself. It took me a bit of time to come to that conclusion, because initially it looked like there was cotton or something attached to the apex (from my wiping), but I think it's more likely to be the light reflecting at different angles.

So then I did some cut tests and results were actually pretty good. It was getting grab in the paper towel, and not tearing as much, receipt paper was easily shredded. I struggled with the cigarette paper, as it seemed to just move all over the place, batted around like a cat with a ball of wool.

So then I thought I'd try a little bit of refinement on the 6K, so repainted, and moved up, using the same edge leading feather weight stropping motions.

To be honest, that just started me back at the same old spot of not correctly hitting the apex, but I guess that's good learnings.
I did notice that I was consistently missing the apex more on one side than the other, so that's interesting.
Also, there seemed like there was a "different sound" when I got close to the apex. Does that sound right to anyone? Maybe like a shovel dragging along concrete? It didn't seem to be there when I wasn't hitting the apex, but was the only noticeable difference when I was.

Anyway, after much repainting, stropping, inspection, I've ended up with this 6K edge:

left side

Right side

I'm not really sure what to make of the scratch patterns. Maybe the right side pic shows 1K scratches on the right hand side of the pic, but the brighter middle strip might be the 6K scratch patterns, but I don't really know what I'm looking at. Any thoughts?

So after that I retested with some cutting.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

The results:

So easily cutting notepad paper:

Easily cutting receipt paper:

I had some trouble working out how to hold the cigarette paper, so I had to essentially hold it very softly on either side of the blade (probably didn't help that we had the air con on). Not sure what the conventional way to test cigarette paper cutting is:

Same sort of problem with the new paper towel, this stuff was so floppy, I had to essentially brace it gently on either side of the blade, otherwise it would just flop. So not sure whether that's the accepted method or not.

Fairly clean cuts. Not perfect, but a damn sight better than yesterday. The weave in this paper towel had little bumps in the pattern, which make a slightly different sound when you cut through a harder (less aerated) bump, so they maybe didn't cut as cleanly either.
I'm also aware that my 6K refinement probably took a bit longer than it should do, so maybe I lost some teeth / bite in that refinement.

But all in all, I've come a pretty long way in three days, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the many many people who have added their support, encouragement, experience and advice.

I reckon I've got the makings of a good method that I just need to get a heap more practice on.
Really keen to get your thoughts on:
- Is that noise when deburring a good sign or a bad sign? Or am I just hearing things?
- Is a 1K to 6K progression even worth it for stainless?
- Any other thoughts or suggestions about what to try next (aside from more knives )?
- Anything that I've missed?

 

[Neutri]

First of all congratulations and thanks for the thread. I've been following it since the beginning and learned a lot so thanks a lot!

- Do you have an idea why you are not hitting the apex? The shoulders to thick or some convexity?
- What microscope are you using? I need to get myself one!
- Also what did you do to hit the apex in the end? Did you change anything?

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

First of all congratulations and thanks for the thread. I've been following it since the beginning and learned a lot so thanks a lot!

- Do you have an idea why you are not hitting the apex? The shoulders to thick or some convexity?
- What microscope are you using? I need to get myself one!
- Also what did you do to hit the apex in the end? Did you change anything?

Glad it was worth the crazy long read!

Thoughts on not hitting the apex:
Two possible answers that I can think of: a) either my angle inconsistency when raising the but created convexing meaning the shoulders were a bit thicker / wider than flat / straight. This would be explained by millimetre small changes in the angle.
And / or:
B) just not using the right angle to hit the apex.

The microscope I have is: https://www.amazon.com.au/Carson-Mi...croscope/dp/B00LAX52IQ/ref=asc_df_B00LAX52IQ/

It’s really good for visual inspection, but man is it a pain in the arse for taking photos. I think they do a USB one if taking photos is your thing (I really only need to be able to see it with my own eyes, but I needed some help working out what I was seeing).
I can also recommend the orange chisel point sharpie!

 

[Neutri]

Glad it was worth the crazy long read!

Thoughts on not hitting the apex:
Two possible answers that I can think of: a) either my angle inconsistency when raising the but created convexing meaning the shoulders were a bit thicker / wider than flat / straight. This would be explained by millimetre small changes in the angle.
And / or:
B) just not using the right angle to hit the apex.

The microscope I have is: https://www.amazon.com.au/Carson-Mi...croscope/dp/B00LAX52IQ/ref=asc_df_B00LAX52IQ/

It’s really good for visual inspection, but man is it a pain in the arse for taking photos. I think they do a USB one if taking photos is your thing (I really only need to be able to see it with my own eyes, but I needed some help working out what I was seeing).
I can also recommend the orange chisel point sharpie!

Thanks for your answer! Did you change anything in the end to hit the apex? Or at some point it just did?


Yeah I can see how juggling to take pictures can be a pain in the ass x) But seems quite practical thanks :3

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Thanks for your answer! Did you change anything in the end to hit the apex? Or at some point it just did?


Yeah I can see how juggling to take pictures can be a pain in the ass x) But seems quite practical thanks :3

I just kept at it, trying to hit the apex at the same angle that I raised the burr on, using edge leading lightweight stropping style strokes.
Now either one of two things happened:
A) one of the many strokes was a tiny bit different in the angle which was enough to hit the apex
And / or
B) the convexed shoulders were eventually abraded to a point where I could hit the apex at the same angle.

There was something different about the sound of when I got close to hitting the apex, but until I have that independently verified by someone who has more experience than me, I’ll just park it as an interesting observation.

 

[Neutri]

I see thanks!
Just bought the microscope and the sharpie

Let's wait for an experienced person to answer then

 

[mengwong]

- Is that noise when deburring a good sign or a bad sign? Or am I just hearing things?

That’ll be the “feedback” that people talk about, apparently SG have poor feedback, and $$$$ jnats have excellent feedback. If you listen very closely you can hear a tinny mechanical voice saying in Japanese “You are 0.8 degrees away from an apex angle. You are 0.4 degrees away from an apex angle. You have reached the apex. Stay on target. Stay on target.”