Sujihiki vs Gyuto efficiency on slicing proteins

[nickw_]

Hi All,

Something I've been wondering about, and perhaps someone here can help answer.

I'm wondering how efficiently a sujihiki slices compared to a gyuto with raw and cooked proteins. I'm curious, can a sujihiki make better use of every cm of edge length, compared to a gyuto? Essentially: Can a sujihiki make the same cut, in one pull, with less length than a gyuto?

I know edge profile comes into play here, it's not exactly apples to apples. But let's level the playing field as much as we can.
Say a 210 Fujiwara Maboroshi Gyuto vs a 210 Fujiwara Maboroshi Sujihiki. Same maker, same steel, same finish, same overall geometry, both freshly sharpened, etc. Just with the sujihiki being thinner and shorter height wise (spine to heel), so less drag.

I'm curious (holistically speaking, and on average) if the sujihiki geometry allows it make a clean single pull with any less length.

Thanks,
Nick

 

[Jovidah]

The main hypothethical advantage you get from a sujihiki is less drag... but it's debatable how much of a difference that actually makes; I've grabbed a gyuto for slicing plenty of times and never had any issues. There's also a bit of a downside to sujihikis; they tend to be lighter. And IMO heavier & stiffer tends to work better for slicing.
Most people don't really get sujis 'so they can go shorter'; if anything I think most people tend to get their sujihikis larger. Although I'm more than willing to entertain the idea that maybe the better choice would be a larger gyuto instead.

 

[nickw_]

Thanks @Jovidah. I didn't really consider the weight. In my mind I was thinking the same level of downward force applied to each knife. That said, you're right, if one just let the weight of the knife make the cut, a gyuto would probably come out ahead.

 

[Jovidah]

Also.... to complicate matters further... there's 2 primary things sujihikis are used for. Filleting / trimming - for which I think thinner and lighter sujis are better, and as a slicer, for which I think heavier and stiffer is better (which will invariably also end up being thicker).

Still not really an answer though; at best I can admit to having similar questions.

 

[btbyrd]

It's not about efficiency. It's about being a badass.

 

[btbyrd]

But seriously, I think the main advantage of sujis over gyutos is on really delicate stuff like raw or cured fish, where stiction can literally tear the product apart. Of course, a yanagi does that stuff better, but I don't like them for cutting mammalian flesh or for doing things like slicing rolls of sushi (not that I do that super often). But I don't really use yanagis, so take what I say there with a grain of salt. My basic view is that sujis can be pretty good at all slicing tasks, including those where a gyuto might have too much drag. They're good general purpose slicers and some even work well as a line knife. Yanagis are, in general, less versatile.

I don't think there's much of any difference in terms of how efficiently a gyuto would slice, say, a cooked beef roast compared to a suji. In my experience, it's about the same. But I don't have a 300mm gyuto anymore, so the 300mm suji wins on sheer length when it comes to cutting big stuff.

 

[McMan]

But seriously, I think the main advantage of sujis over gyutos is on really delicate stuff like raw or cured fish, where stiction can literally tear the product apart.

I agree. With a taller knife, when soft something sticks, there can be that scrunching/crinkling/zig-zag thing that happens. I'm struggling to explain it--but when something sticks to the blade and doesn't release, what's stuck to the blade 'scrunches up'. Think of it this way: Try slicing lox with a cleaver (very tall knife) vs. a salmon knife (very short knife)... big difference.
In my thinking, height is a key advantage (or disadvantage sometimes!) to a suji. Less surface area is one potential) factor that equates to less stiction. Another factor is the product itself. Another factor is, etc...

P.S. Thought you were @Luftmensch for a sec. Very similar avatars.

 

[Jason183]

Sujihiki definitely have advantage for slicing compared to gyuto, less height at the tip=less drag. I personally liked the Gyutohiki style, extra heel height comes in handy when comes to rock chop with the heel sometimes.

Flatter tip profile better than curve if you want to use every cm of knife length for slicing, it also depends. Because curved tip profile is better for slicing raw steaks that you don’t wanna dig your pointy tip into the cutting board.

 

[nickw_]

Thanks guys. I am thinking about slicing strictly mammalian proteins. For fish, a single bevel is certainly better.

I had wondered since the suji is more of laser, it might slice a little more with every inch pulled, but I wasn't sure. I had suspected if there is a difference, then it's probably pretty subtle.

Just thought I'd ask.

 

[Nemo]

Sujis are definitely not always laser like. Often less so than a gyuto from the same line.

 

[chefwp]

Interesting question. I find myself reaching for a suji when slicing large cuts of roasted meat. I think all things considered they feel better and probably are a bit more efficient than a gyuto for this task because the narrow blade creates less drag. However, when my wife asks me to process a big hunk of raw beef into thin slices for a stir fry, I always grab a 240mm gyuto, I think the weight and height just lends itself to this task better. Could it be that drag is less of a factor with raw beef? I don't know the answer to that, but the gyuto just feels more "right" for this task to me.

 

[Se1ryu]

Hi All,

Something I've been wondering about, and perhaps someone here can help answer.

I'm wondering how a sujihiki cuts (edit: slices) compared to a gyuto with raw and cooked proteins. I'm curious, can a sujihiki make better use of every cm of edge length, compared to a gyuto? Essentially: Can a sujihiki make the same cut, in one pull, with less length than a gyuto?

I know edge profile comes into play here, it's not exactly apples to apples. But let's level the playing field as much as we can.
Say a 210 Fujiwara Maboroshi Gyuto vs a 210 Fujiwara Maboroshi Sujihiki. Same maker, same steel, same finish, same overall geometry, both freshly sharpened, etc. Just sujihiki being thinner and shorter, so less drag.

I'm curious (holistically speaking, and on average) if the sujihiki geometry allows it make a clean single pull with any less length.

Thanks,
Nick

I recommend Sujihiki for SLICING because of longer blade, less height and blade profile.

Gyuto has more height and it's harder to use as a slicing knife. You can get cleaner cut by using sujihiki.

 

[Pie]

Dragging and scrunching with more blade height is spot on.

Cheeky to use an outlier as an example, but in the case of two knives I enjoy very much, the difference is significant - Takeda gyuto and suji.

Both thin and whispy, but the drag with the gyuto is immense at that height. I also like to use the blade to handle thin slices of roast or steak, which the gyuto does poorly for obvious reasons. Utility plays a pretty big role in my preference for suji I suppose. When I have used these for breaking down large raw proteins they become more equal. The gyuto maybe with a bit of an edge (hah) because it’s a big food shovel.

Re: stricy cutting performance.. outside of drag, I feel like suji geometry wouldn’t necessarily reduce the size of the knife needed for a standardized cut.

 

[btbyrd]

Height is just one part of geometry, and "suji geometry" is highly variable. These images aren't quite to scale, but you can get a sense for how much variance there can be between a suji and gyuto from the same maker, as well as how much variance there is between sujis from different makers. The Anryu suji is far stouter than its gyuto sibling and is also chunkier than my other two sujis. The Togiharu is kind of a midweight, but the grantons thin things out and help reduce stiction so it works relatively well on fish. The Ginga is lasery thin, but much shorter and mostly gets used for trimming things and more precise cutting tasks.

I started a thread about this sort of variability earlier this year, hoping people would chime in with their favorite sujis for particular tasks (and a brief explanation of why they're good for those tasks).

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah definitly not all sujis are laserish. Nor should they be. Like I said in that older thread I basically seperate them into two classes; the thin & light that's better for trimming and filleting, and the fatter and heavier that tends to be better as a slicer for stuff like roasts. I wouldn't be surprised if gyutos of equal length function just as well in the latter role.

 

[Se1ryu]

Height is just one part of geometry, and "suji geometry" is highly variable. These images aren't quite to scale, but you can get a sense for how much variance there can be between a suji and gyuto from the same maker, as well as how much variance there is between sujis from different makers. The Anryu suji is far stouter than its gyuto sibling and is also chunkier than my other two sujis. The Togiharu is kind of a midweight, but the grantons thin things out and help reduce stiction so it works relatively well on fish. The Ginga is lasery thin, but much shorter and mostly gets used for trimming things and more precise cutting tasks.


View attachment 190981

I started a thread about this sort of variability earlier this year, hoping people would chime in with their favorite sujis for particular tasks (and a brief explanation of why they're good for those tasks).

Those are different sizes suji in the pictures of course one will have more height than the other but overall Gyuto will definitely has more height than Sujihiki.

 

[Ben.G.]

From my experience, the cooks with minimal knife skills could achieve better results with a gyuto when slicing large roasts like prime rib. I personally always choose a suji for slicing meats because I enjoy it, but I don’t think it is any more efficient than a gyuto for large cuts of sliced boneless meat. For other cutting tasks like bone-in meats or fish prep, a narrower sujihiki absolutely has advantages. They are more nimble for precise work, but take more skill.

I don’t think cutting distance or length per stroke is even a consideration when comparing gyuto to suji ( when they are the same length). 240mm is 240mm. Cut quality or whatever you feel like today are the only reasons to choose one over the other if they are the same length. Most people have longer sujis than their gyutos, so length would be the predominant deciding factor when choosing between a gyuto or suji.