What do I do if I want to buy a Coticule?

[cotedupy]

I get quite a few messages asking if I have any Coticules for sale and/or where to get one. So I'm putting this here as a PSA and so that I can link to it if asked in the future, I hope it doesn't contravene forum rules. I have no financial affiliation with anyone mentioned.


1.) Unfortunately if I don't have something listed on BST here then I don't have it for sale. And if I do decide to sell any Cotis at any point, I probably already have a wait list as long as your arm.

2.) The desirability and prices of Cotis have skyrocketed in the last few years. It's now almost impossible to find cheap stones that are worth taking a punt on if you don't know what they're like. And Cotis can be highly variable, with few visual indicators about how they might perform. Which means you really want to be buying from someone you trust, and it's the (completely valid and correct) reason I get so many messages asking for help in trying to navigate the minefield. This is what I tell them, it involves two people, conveniently both called Rob:

My absolute number one tip top suggestion for buying a Coticule, or pretty much any other type of western whetstone for that matter, is to check out the Ebay seller robcooper29. Rob is a very nice guy, he has flattened and tested every stone he sells, and he really knows his stuff about sharpening and honing kitchen knives, tools, and razors. I've picked up a number of stones from him myself, and the descriptions and evaluations are never anything less than pin-point accurate. With the icing on the cake being that his prices are extremely reasonable too; he's a collector himself, and is in it more for the love of the game than trying to make massive wads of cash. Note that a quirk/glitch in Ebay means that you may need to change your delivery location to the UK in order to see all of his listings. Fear not though - he can and does send stuff to the states and elsewhere, just ping him a message if its not coming up as an option.*

The second Rob is Rob Celis, the owner of Ardennes Coticule and the only mine still in operation today. He likewise knows a lot about different types of sharpening, can give advice if needed, speaks fluent English, and replies to emails promptly. Buying a newly quarried stone will be more expensive than an old one. But if you're looking for larger formats with a surface area more akin to Japanese stones or synthetic waterstones it's probably your best option, as in the past stones tended to be cut smaller. He also obviously sells Belgian Blue Whetstone, and combis with a French stone from the Pyrenees.

Other vendors do exist obviously, but if you really want to take the gamble out of buying a Coticule... going to one of the two Robs is my suggestion.

---



* Shipping from the UK to the US can be wildly cheap sometimes. I sent a dama slicing knife tracked to the states this week for £6 (yes - six), and delivery time is usually about 10 days.

And please also note this post made by @Gavva below.

 

[stringer]

Cheapest way to get a coticule is to find a Torrey Combination Hone and Strop. You will have to do your own research and pick your eBay selections carefully. These are usually being sold by pickers who have no idea that the stone part is worth money. Some of them couldn't even tell you the difference between a hone and a strop. And Torrey was one of the most prolific razor and strop companies in the world from 1870-1920. So they made tons of these things and they changed over time and there are a million different versions and a lot of them don't have stones. Or the stones are missing but you can't tell from the photos.

I just pulled the trigger on this one. 99% sure that's a coticule.

The best thing is stones are 7 inches long. Unfortunately they are only about an 1/8 of an inch thick. But you can get them cheap enough to roll the dice. He's what they look like liberated and cleaned up.

 

[cotedupy]

Cheapest way to get a coticule is to find a Torrey Combination Hone and Strop. You will have to do your own research and pick your eBay selections carefully. These are usually being sold by pickers who have no idea that the stone part is worth money. Some of them couldn't even tell you the difference between a hone and a strop. And Torrey was one of the most prolific razor and strop companies in the world from 1870-1920. So they made tons of these things and they changed over time and there are a million different versions and a lot of them don't have stones. Or the stones are missing but you can't tell from the photos.

I just pulled the trigger on this one. 99% sure that's a coticule.

View attachment 334894


The best thing is stones are 7 inches long. Unfortunately they are only about an 1/8 of an inch thick. But you can get them cheap enough to roll the dice. He's what they look like liberated and cleaned up.
View attachment 334895

I didn't know about those stop combis, definitely worth looking out for!

---

And yes; if anybody else has any other tips, suggestions, or good experiences with other Coti vendors and Ebay-ers, do feel free to add them to this thread. The two Robs are very good, but they don't have a monopoly (duopoly?) on the market.

 

[Rideon66]

Find a friend(enabler) who searches for stones while drinking late at night in another country where shipping makes the stone price too high. So they send you the listings since shipping in the same country is cheap.
This only seems to work out where the buyer and seller are in the UK from my enabling experience.
In all honesty some of my best finds have been because some enabler friend of mine has sent me a listing.

 

[Gavva]

I worry for Rob’s poor inbox. I’ll give it a week before I send him a note. Thanks for the tips.

 

[cotedupy]

I worry for Rob’s poor inbox. I’ll give it a week before I send him a note. Thanks for the tips.

^This^ is a very good point.

And I did already ping Rob (Cooper) a message to say I could amend or take my post down if he thought it would actually be counter-productive. Because he is always very busy with his actual job and family stuff. So as Gavva said; perhaps not everybody send him a million messages immediately, though if he's got a stone listed that you know you want but are having trouble with the Ebay shipping options, then he will get back to you. As I said before his descriptions and evaluations are already very accurate ime.

For the second Rob (Celis) though; Ardennes Coticule is his business, answering emails is part of that, and part of the way he makes money. Also an absolute gentleman, and probably has more time set aside in his day for answering questions about Coticules!

 

[Rideon66]

I will add this Etsy seller out of the Netherlands.
I have purchased from him before and while not the cheapest. He does get some nice stones directly from the mine sometimes and usually free shipping. This way if you see something you like you can just buy it.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Beornidas

 

[JPAU]

I will add this Etsy seller out of the Netherlands.
I have purchased from him before and while not the cheapest. He does get some nice stones directly from the mine sometimes and usually free shipping. This way if you see something you like you can just buy it.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Beornidas

I bought a bbw from this Dutchman. Nice guy but for some reason the Etsy store adds local (Australian) taxes (doesn’t for any other seller that I have encountered) and the shipping cost is quite high (40 percent of the cost of the stone). He claims that the shipping is costlier than it used to be because his usual shipping company became insolvent and he now uses a more expensive one that has almost monopolised postage in the Netherlands (have not verified this for myself). My stone arrived with a slight corner check, which is not fatal but is annoying. Probably the cheapest option for Australians but perhaps not Europeans or Americans from what I can tell.

 

[cotedupy]

I bought a bbw from this Dutchman. Nice guy but for some reason the Etsy store adds local (Australian) taxes (doesn’t for any other seller that I have encountered) and the shipping cost is quite high (40 percent of the cost of the stone). He claims that the shipping is costlier than it used to be because his usual shipping company became insolvent and he now uses a more expensive one that has almost monopolised postage in the Netherlands (have not verified this for myself). My stone arrived with a slight corner check, which is not fatal but is annoying. Probably the cheapest option for Australians but perhaps not Europeans or Americans from what I can tell.

Something to note is that shipping stuff internationally from Aus is quite a lot cheaper than most places. It would certainly cost me a fair bit more for me to send you something, than for you to send the same thing back. So I'm sure your man from the Netherlands isn't having you on .

And do keep an eye out locally, cos there are actually a lot of old Cotis over there. The biggest, and still right up there with the best, I've ever found anywhere is this 10x2.5" natural combi I picked up for $20 from an Ebay seller in... NSW.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/coticules.60724/post-929007

 

[Rideon66]

I bought a bbw from this Dutchman. Nice guy but for some reason the Etsy store adds local (Australian) taxes (doesn’t for any other seller that I have encountered) and the shipping cost is quite high (40 percent of the cost of the stone). He claims that the shipping is costlier than it used to be because his usual shipping company became insolvent and he now uses a more expensive one that has almost monopolised postage in the Netherlands (have not verified this for myself). My stone arrived with a slight corner check, which is not fatal but is annoying. Probably the cheapest option for Australians but perhaps not Europeans or Americans from what I can tell.

Interesting. Wonder if that is just an Australian issue. Mine was free shipping. I probably had to pay tax as I think Etsy is required to do that by state here.
I even clicked on a coti he has for sale right now and says free shipping for me in the US.

 

[JPAU]

Interesting. Wonder if that is just an Australian issue. Mine was free shipping. I probably had to pay tax as I think Etsy is required to do that by state here.
I even clicked on a coti he has for sale right now and says free shipping for me in the US.

Not sure! Can only tell you about my experience

 

[jaydee]

Belgischer brocken in germany
if you don't mind buying new and expensive

 

[stringer]

I found the box for one of my Torrey coticules.

 

[1315]

https://www.griffithshavinggoods.com/collections/sharpening-stone?sort_by=created-descending

They list new stones every 2 weeks or so.

 

[MarcelNL]

wow , how about serendipity... I found myself in the Ardennes last week and started thinking about a Coticule (once more)...looked up where that mine is and saw it's quite close from where I live so I made a mental note to go visit in order to pick up a stone with advice since I know they differ without too many visual cues....and suddenly there is this thread....

 

[SwampDonkey]

Great write-up, glad you took the time for this.

I've bought 3 coticule and 2 BBW direct from Ardennes-Coticule and Rob Cellis was always pleasant. I put in the comments im looking for a fast stone for kitchen knives, not a razor stone and he always has provided great stones/help. Even asking for pics of a previous coti so he could match it on a bigger one I wanted.

For US consumers: I've also bought an irregular coticule and a BBW (among other stones) from SharpeningSupplies.com with fast shipping and happy results

 

[Legion74]

I bought a bbw from this Dutchman. Nice guy but for some reason the Etsy store adds local (Australian) taxes (doesn’t for any other seller that I have encountered) and the shipping cost is quite high (40 percent of the cost of the stone). He claims that the shipping is costlier than it used to be because his usual shipping company became insolvent and he now uses a more expensive one that has almost monopolised postage in the Netherlands (have not verified this for myself). My stone arrived with a slight corner check, which is not fatal but is annoying. Probably the cheapest option for Australians but perhaps not Europeans or Americans from what I can tell.

Ebay also adds GST if you buy something from overseas. Basically the government has decreed it to prevent them not being able to wet their beak every time we try to import ourselves.

 

[Legion74]

I will add, if you are buying a vintage stone for knives (which I assume most here are) look closely at the pictures for signs of dishing on the yellow side.

I've bought lots of old, dished coticules, and since I am mostly using them for razors, I can safely lap them flat until the ends match the middle, and even if there is only a couple of mm left of the yellow, that will still last many years honing a razor. Knives, not so much.

I've happily cut a dished 9" stone into two thin 4.5" stones and they are still great for finishing razors.

 

[stringer]

I will add, if you are buying a vintage stone for knives (which I assume most here are) look closely at the pictures for signs of dishing on the yellow side.

I've bought lots of old, dished coticules, and since I am mostly using them for razors, I can safely lap them flat until the ends match the middle, and even if there is only a couple of mm left of the yellow, that will still last many years honing a razor. Knives, not so much.

I've happily cut a dished 9" stone into two thin 4.5" stones and they are still great for finishing razors.

If you only use them for touchups and micro bevels and not more they can last for years and years and years on knives.

 

[Legion74]

If you only use them for touchups and micro bevels and not more they can drop last for years and years and years on knives.

But then you don't get to post pics with so much black swarf that it looks like the Exxon Valdez broke open on your honing station! Knife guys love that!

 

[aporigine]

But then you don't get to post pics with so much black swarf that it looks like the Exxon Valdez broke open on your honing station! Knife guys love that!

the dreaded choil spill

 

[BillHanna]

the dreaded choil spill

STRAIGHT TO JAIL

 

[aporigine]

STRAIGHT TO JAIL

My day is not complete without your pun reaction. Thank you.

 

[Rideon66]

I bought a bbw from this Dutchman. Nice guy but for some reason the Etsy store adds local (Australian) taxes (doesn’t for any other seller that I have encountered) and the shipping cost is quite high (40 percent of the cost of the stone). He claims that the shipping is costlier than it used to be because his usual shipping company became insolvent and he now uses a more expensive one that has almost monopolised postage in the Netherlands (have not verified this for myself). My stone arrived with a slight corner check, which is not fatal but is annoying. Probably the cheapest option for Australians but perhaps not Europeans or Americans from what I can tell.

Oh also if you are in Australia check out Vintage tool shop in Melbourne. He has Turkey stones, Charnley Forest and coticule. Really nice guy and if you are into old razors he loves chatting about them when he isn’t crazy busy making heritage saws.

 

[Jovidah]

So...any places in the Ardennes where it's possible to simply pick them up off the ground? Asking for a friend...
I do remember plenty of stone rubble back in my climbing days but at the time I had no interest in sharpening stones yet.

 

[Skylar303]

So...any places in the Ardennes where it's possible to simply pick them up off the ground? Asking for a friend...
I do remember plenty of stone rubble back in my climbing days but at the time I had no interest in sharpening stones yet.

Take a kiri next time you're out there and start rubbing stones!

 

[Skylar303]

I doubt you could scope the active mines for obvious reasons but the closed locals may have tons of bouts (koppas) that at the time wasn't worth their efforts to haul but are still perfectly good stones. IIRC they tried to harvest big slabs to recut later in shop.

 

[MarcelNL]

So...any places in the Ardennes where it's possible to simply pick them up off the ground? Asking for a friend...
I do remember plenty of stone rubble back in my climbing days but at the time I had no interest in sharpening stones yet.

I haven't seen them, there ought to be places though....problem is in finding them..

 

[Legion74]

I doubt you could scope the active mines for obvious reasons but the closed locals may have tons of bouts (koppas) that at the time wasn't worth their efforts to haul but are still perfectly good stones. IIRC they tried to harvest big slabs to recut later in shop.

There is only one mine still active, and they are mostly a bluestone quarry that does the hones on the side these days, from what I hear.

I have heard stories of people spotting chunks of coticule in walls, etc, that have just been used as building material, so I'd be surprised if you didn't spot some lying about if you went for a hike in the area. The quality would be pot luck.

 

[cotedupy]

So...any places in the Ardennes where it's possible to simply pick them up off the ground? Asking for a friend...
I do remember plenty of stone rubble back in my climbing days but at the time I had no interest in sharpening stones yet.

I haven't seen them, there ought to be places though....problem is in finding them..

so I'd be surprised if you didn't spot s

There might be, unfortunately it's not necessarily quite that simple, because Coticule veins are relatively thin, and they tend to run down into the earth rather than parallel to the surface. Here's the Ol Preu quarry:

Now if that were a picture of a hill, then my two little whetstone hunters could dig down beneath their feet to a vein and get some fairly easily. And there'd also be places where you could just pick it up off the ground.

But it's not a picture of a hill, it's a map. My little men are lying down, not standing up. And that means two things: It makes it more difficult to quarry*. And it means you only find it in specific locations.

If the orientation of Coticule layers was parallel relative to the lie of the land; you would find it more easily and across a much larger area, albeit from fewer different veins.




* Especially if you're lying down.