What do you think about this edge out of the box?

[Franonymous]

Hello!

I recently purchased my first two knives. One of them is the Tsunehisa Gyuto 210mm. However, I noticed that the sharpening on it out of the box was a bit off. Comparing it to some photos I've seen online, it appears to be slightly oversharpened (especially on the left side), resulting in a thicker edge behind the edge bevel. The right side of the knife seems to have been sharpened properly, with a nice and even edge bevel that isn't too thick. However, the left side looks like it was sharpened carelessly or hastily.

Does this micro bevel seem too large to you? Also, what are your thoughts on the inconsistencies in bevel thickness along the left side of the knife? I've attached a split-screen photo for reference, comparing both sides of the knife taken at the same section near the heel. I'm contemplating returning it. What's your opinion on this matter?

The other knife I purchased is a Takamura Migaki R2 Gyuto 210mm, and it performs like a beast. It also came out of the box looking perfect, as if it were an AutoCAD model brought to life. The finish is perfectly consistent, and everything is nice and even. The quality control on this knife is really impressive. It is a tiny touch bent to the left at the bolster, but I do not mind since I do not think it will effect performance.

 

[lesslemming]

It looks indeed over sharpened and uneven. Sure this hasn’t been used by someone before?

 

[Franonymous]

The retailer stated that it hadn't been used nor sharpened, but he called me upon receiving the knife and stated that in case I am dissatisfied, I could get it replaced. He gave me a call because of a possible shipping issue, but I did take note of him stating that.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

It looks like the Tsunehisa gyuto I had and I wouldn't worry about it. These are higher volume knives and while I believe they are still sharpened by hand, they still move a lot of product and I believe just use wheels. They're just not always going to be as crisp and precise as the smaller makers typically are. Also, many OEM style knives will have asymmetric edge bevels. I'd just sharpening it up and move on. If you feel it necessary then some thinning can be done.

 

[bahamaroot]

What your seeing is not unusual for high production Japanese knives and generally will not affect performance. The wider bevel doesn't necessarily mean that side was "over sharpened" it could just be that side was sharpened at a lower angle. As mentioned, many of these knives are sharpened asymmetrically. I wouldn't worry about it, the replacement knife could very easily show up sharpened the same way.

 

[bsfsu]

I sell a lot of Tsunehisa and that knife seems to be within the quality control range.

 

[bsfsu]

Something that I have noticed about most hand sharpened knives from Japan is the bevel is bigger on the right side of the knife than the left.

I have seen my sharpening of knives do the same to the bevels. This is because I generally work on the right side untill I form a bevel. When you flip to the left side it takes almost no time (ie. Create a smaller bevel) to burr.

When I sharpen this way the right bevel is big and the left is small.

I ask if people are lefty or righty, if they are lefty start grinding the left side first.

 

[Delat]

Hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like the left side has a primary bevel that is the wavy/uneven part, and a tiny edge bevel / microbevel on top. While the right side just the straight, rather large edge bevel alone.

If this is the case it’s really nothing to be concerned about on the left side, and should be pretty easy to sharpen if there really is a microbevel. Given the thickness of the edge bevel on the right side, I suspect some thinning on that side might be in order unless OP plans to use this knife for tough duty.

 

[Franonymous]

No micro bevel on this one, and it's supposed to be a 50/50.

 

[ian]

Something that I have noticed about most hand sharpened knives from Japan is the bevel is bigger on the right side of the knife than the left.

I have seen my sharpening of knives do the same to the bevels. This is because I generally work on the right side untill I form a bevel. When you flip to the left side it takes almost no time (ie. Create a smaller bevel) to burr.

When I sharpen this way the right bevel is big and the left is small.

I ask if people are lefty or righty, if they are lefty start grinding the left side first.

I think this should be done with intention, though, not just because the sharpener’s a righty. If you always sharpen this way, the edge will start to migrate to the left relative to the centerline of the blade, which may eventually be a problem, especially if it’s a clad knife.

Larger right side bevels could also be because they’re sharpening asymmetrically, with a shallower right side angle.

 

[Franonymous]

Could it be a factory second? I live in Croatia, and we tend to get all sorts of lower-quality products since it's a less developed country. Do you reckon it could be the same for knives in some countries or with certain retailers?

 

[ModRQC]

The unit is well within expectations for this kind of knives. The sharpening is certainly noobish, with fairly typical signs of relatively unsteady hand. Buy 100 J-knives from all stratas and you're likely to get 20 that are some more or less this way, especially factory made.

But if you can return it and if he even pays the shipping back for you, well just put your mind at ease.

 

[Delat]

No micro bevel on this one, and it's supposed to be a 50/50.

The shiny silver line at the top of the right image (left face of the knife) is what looks like the actual edge bevel or microbevel on the left face, from your side by side photo. I believe this is your actual edge on the left side. Or maybe I’m just totally confused by the images and terminology.

Anyway, it’s tiny relative to the edge bevel on the right face, and looks fine for a factory edge for this class of knife. But as others have said, if you’re uncomfortable with the knife then return it if that’s an option. I have a Tsunehisa petty and it’s a fairly robust grind (ie somewhat thick behind the edge) and I’d expect their gyutos to be similar. Presumably you wanted a laser in the Takamura and a more rough and ready knife in the Tsunihisa, but if that’s not the case then return it and fill out the questionnaire if you’d like suggestions on a replacement.

 

[M1k3]

Takamura's are pretty well finished, even their budget Chromax line. Although the spine and choil could use some softening up. They also come with a crazy thin zero edge.

If you're competent at sharpening, I'd start sharpening at a low angle on the Tseunisha, evening out the edges, then sharpen at a higher normal angle.

 

[Benuser]

I'm afraid you should adjust your expectations about factory edges. Traditionally, Japanese makers delivered their knives unsharpened, and the end-user, or for him and at its costs the retailer, was supposed to put his own edge on it. Nowadays there is an edge on it, and that's all you may say about it. Three strokes and bit of buffing, that's all. Less than a minute of work. Don't expect a serious stone sharpening.
50/50 doesn’t mean much, is a marketing slogan and if there's a truly symmetric edge on it, it very rarely matches the blade's geometry, which is normally strongly right-biased, except for lasers. I don't know whether your knife is one. By tradition, left-handers are, to put it mildly, being ignored in Japanese culture.
Usually, the blade's axis is off-centered to the left, and the edge should be in-line with it.
The first thing I do with a new knife is getting out a 320 or 220, thin the right side and go as far as to make sure the right bevel is gone. I'm a right-hander and want the right bevel to form a continuous arc with the right face. I may do the same on the other side, or only deburr at a higher angle. Make sure, again, nothing of the factory edge is left. From there on, I may see what kind of adjustments are useful.
I certainly wouldn't return a knife only because of a factory edge. The next one you get may have other, serious flaws you can't solve yourself and then your position is much more problematic.
Croatia is part of the biggest economic block in the world with a high level of consumers' protection. If in a crazy state of mind a retailer or maker were considering some destination to get rid of seconds, there are far safer options.

 

[bsfsu]

I think this should be done with intention, though, not just because the sharpener’s a righty. If you always sharpen this way, the edge will start to migrate to the left relative to the centerline of the blade, which may eventually be a problem, especially if it’s a clad knife.

Larger right side bevels could also be because they’re sharpening asymmetrically, with a shallower right side angle

I agree, I with the migration of the edge away from the center line but this is the initial sharpening (not even a honbazuke), the factory edge is often not the best edge. I'll have a talk to Tsunehisa about it and see what they say.

Could it be a factory second? I live in Croatia, and we tend to get all sorts of lower-quality products since it's a less developed country. Do you reckon it could be the same for knives in some countries or with certain retailers?

Not a second, they are a factory made knife but not made by a robot, there are small variations in each blade grind and finish.

 

[FabiSharp]

Something that I have noticed about most hand sharpened knives from Japan is the bevel is bigger on the right side of the knife than the left.

I have seen my sharpening of knives do the same to the bevels. This is because I generally work on the right side untill I form a bevel. When you flip to the left side it takes almost no time (ie. Create a smaller bevel) to burr.

When I sharpen this way the right bevel is big and the left is small.

I ask if people are lefty or righty, if they are lefty start grinding the left side first.

You have no ideea what you're talking about!

 

[bsfsu]

You have no ideea what you're talking about!

This is my opinion from using Japanese knives in commercial kitchens for over 20 years, sharpening for over 20 years (professionally for the past 3 years, I've sharpened over 100 knives this year) and selling knives for over 5 years. I also talk directly with blacksmiths and makers in Japan. I own a Japanese knife shop and spend most of my days dealing with knives.

Tell me where I'm going wrong and I'll study to be as knowledge as you.

Edit: I am not an expert, everyday I am confounded with sharpening or polishing or just stabbing my fingers(why ), I am on this site to learn because of the combined knowledge of all of the people here.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

You have no ideea what you're talking about!

Well that's a super helpful comment.

 

[M1k3]

You have no ideea what you're talking about!

Please explain. This comment is useless without additional information. And even with additional information, this comment is counterproductive.

 

[bsfsu]

Back to the knives, I have gone through a load of Tsunehisa knives to see what the bevels are like.
I found some larger on the right side, a couple larger on the left and most quite even (50/50) the Ginsan knives I have are a little more inconsistent than the AUS10 I have in store.

I think it is the 'human factor' of the production of the knives. If you think about a sharpener sitting at a wheel sharpening all day, they would be consistant but no one can get the bevels exactly the same on 100+ knives?

I think @Benuser covered it better than myself.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm a fan of Tsunehisa and Akifusa, which, to my knowledge come out of the same factory and include other brands as well. In loose terms I'd say Tsunehisa is in their middle grade while Akifusa is in their upper grade. A Tsunehisa Ginsan nakiri occupies a near-permanent position on my knife rack and an Akifusa 180 AS gyuto keeps slipping back into the rotation. This is after many popular Japanese maker's have come and gone from my lineup and they are competing with everything to custom-made-to-order knives to obscure little-known-outside-of-Japan smiths.

They're good knives.

But Tsunehisa are, for the most part, $200USD and less knives. In that price bracket, which is one I've played in a fair bit, my experience is that subtle inconsistencies, regardless of maker, are the norm and that is why makers like Takamura often get so much praise. They are in that general bracket but reportedly quite consistent. But for me, in this bracket, I expect some compromises of one kind or another.

As I said in the beginning of this thread, I see nothing overly concerning with that knife. But my impression is the OP is seeking validation in his displeasure with the knife so nothing we say in it's defense will matter.

I do wonder if the OP sharpens his knives?

 

[Benuser]

You have no ideea what you're talking about!

1. @bsfsu 's remarks were quite to the point. I only would add, that it's common to sharpen the left side at a much higher angle to somewhat balance the friction on both sides and reduce steering for novices to strongly asymmetric blades. An extra factor resulting in a larger bevel on the right side than on the left one.
2. I'm unpleasantly surprised by the form @FabiSharp has chosen. His claim has in no way been substantiated. What remains is an affront. I'm wondering how @FabiSharp imagines providing further input to this community.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Very few Japanese knives are 50/50. Most are right biased. Also Japanese sharpening the more beveled right side will have thinner sharpening line than the slightly flatter left side. This is not uncommon at all. Also even if you sharpen same angle both sides the backside can have higher line just because of the geometry of the blade. Nothing to worry about.

 

[Franonymous]

Hello, guys! Thank you for helping me come to my senses a bit! Special thanks to @bsfsu and @HumbleHomeCook for being very helpful and exceptionally involved in the topic. I still haven't gotten around to getting something to sharpen my knives on, as I'll be ordering it from Germany since it'll be much cheaper over there. Do you have any suggestions on whether I should go for a nice ol' Wheatstone or perhaps a KME sharpening system? I am an AutoCAD modeler, so I'm quite obsessed with having things perfect. That's why I'm considering getting a system. I'm also quite good with my hands, so I wouldn't mind going with stones. Do you think getting a system helps in reducing knife wear since you can be more consistent with it? I'm open to suggestions. Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in on the topic!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Hello, guys! Thank you for helping me come to my senses a bit! Special thanks to @bsfsu and @HumbleHomeCook for being very helpful and exceptionally involved in the topic. I still haven't gotten around to getting something to sharpen my knives on, as I'll be ordering it from Germany since it'll be much cheaper over there. Do you have any suggestions on whether I should go for a nice ol' Wheatstone or perhaps a KME sharpening system? I am an AutoCAD modeler, so I'm quite obsessed with having things perfect. That's why I'm considering getting a system. I'm also quite good with my hands, so I wouldn't mind going with stones. Do you think getting a system helps in reducing knife wear since you can be more consistent with it? I'm open to suggestions. Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in on the topic!

I'm an ultra-high purity casting engineer. I understand finite and details.

So with that in mind, I say just start with bench stones.

I owned and used a KME for a number of years. They are very good setups. However, they have drawbacks (most all fixed systems do) and chief among them, especially for our longer kitchen knives, is that you cannot adjust for the upsweep of the curved belly. The stone stays on the same plane and that will eventually alter the geometry of the end of your knife. They are also slower both in setup and execution and much more difficult to take with you if you want.

Bench stones open up the world of opportunity for you. Yes, there is a learning curve. There is a learning to curve to all sharpening approaches, but admittedly it is steeper for freehand sharpening. But the rewards are well worth it. It isn't that difficult to achieve working edges. Those of us who enjoy sharpening get all caught up in minute details and atom splitting edges but none of that is necessary for sharp, good performing kitchen knives. Great to work toward but don't let that kind of thing intimidate you and stop you from learning. Set your expectations to working edges to start and then work up.

I recommend avoiding Burrfection on YouTube. He is a popular sharpening figure but I'm not fond of his methods and advice. To each their own. I recommend videos by Japanese Knife Imports, Peter Nowlan, Big Brown Bear, Korin and others. You'll see subtle variations in their techniques or philosophies but that just proves that you have flexibility in your approach.

I'd go so far as to say your mindset may actually prove an asset to freehand sharpening. Sure, you will likely be flustered with your imconsistent results to start but your drive to perfection may be what carries you through. Who knows, you may fall into an all new passion. Many do.

I don't know what is available to you but I recommend starting with splash and go stones vs. soakers, oils or naturals. SnG work well and are quite straightforward. If possible, I'd recommend a Shapton Glass 500 and 2k to start (8"). The Shapton Kuromaku line is also very good and if you go that route, I'd personally probably go with a 320 and 2k but many will recommend the 1k.

I'd get a diamond flattening plate but others will say you can wait.

Stone holders are nice.

Strops can be made out of cardboard, old blue jeans, etc. so no need to buy.

And lastly, I would highly recommend abusing the forum search function and if you're still in need of help, never hesitate to post a thread in the Sharpening Station subforum here. People are very helpful.

 

[Benuser]

Sharpening is not about putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. It's restoring a previous configuration in another, slightly thicker place. (To give an idea: a chef's knife's spine is 2-3mm thick, the very edge 1micron. All happens in between. Above the edge, expect 0.2mm, at 5mm upward 0.5 mm, at 10mm 1mm)
Take into account even strictly symmetric blades have just the axis and the edge exactly in the middle. The faces aren't each other's mirror image, or the knife would terribly wedge.
To have the knife perform properly, you want it's edge to be in accordance with its geometry. Especially with Japanese knives — but not only, the same is true if you're looking for best performance with European knives — both bevels of the edge won't be identical.
Now, jig systems do have a few limitations. They don't allow the thinning that should be performed when moving the edge to a slightly thicker part of the blade. They splendidly ignore a blade's geometry.
If they easily deliver very nice edges, these don't necessarily — or even rarely — match the geometry which is behind. To put it crudely: nice edges, poor cutters.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Learning freehand is a little learning curve. Once you can consistently put sharp edges on knives you will realize that with just a whetstone you won't ever have to use dull knives again.