White 1 Showdown: Satoshi Nakagawa vs. Unshu Yukimitsu

[PPIIBBSS]

I have been researching white 1 knives lately (240mm gyutos), and it sweems these two makers are exceptionally skilled with this steel.

I would love to get some input from folks who have experience with their knives! What do you love or dislike about them?

For anyone who has used both, I'd love to hear how the steels directly compare with one another. Are there any noteable differences, and do you find you have a preference for one or the other?

Of course feel free to also toss out names of other makers who are exceptionally skilled with white 1, but at the moment I'm quite curious to learn more about these two in particular.

PS: I am aware that the geometry of the blade will make a much bigger difference than the core steel. This is purely for the purposes of nerding out over steels!

 

[dehory]

I feel like Togashi (and Jiro) has to be included if you’re having a white 1 “showdown”.

Honyaki aside, I personally associate Nakagawa more with ginsan and blue 2.

 

[zizirex]

TF is still the best White 1 followed by Tanaka.
I haven't tried Nakagawa and Unshu Yukimitsu, but Nakagawa doesn't make bad Knife, some of his stuff is better than Tanaka, just because he's young doesn't mean he's less superior to the "Oyaji"

 

[jedy617]

Togashi edges out Tanaka for me just slightly, but not sure if it's a super fair comparison because Togashi is a Honyaki (although no reason Tanaka can't make his white 1 as hard as a honyaki).

I'ma keep it a buck fifty. Unless you are comparing pretty different carbons like aogami super compared to white 2... I don't think you are going to notice big differences between Japans best blacksmiths with the simple stuff. If you are buying from a smith with a good reputation I would really not be concerned. I don't know Unshu Yukimitsu but it sounds like Michael from knife japan speaks pretty decently of them so I am sure they are great.

I know you you talked about geometry being more important which is definitely good that you know, I'm just trying to say I don't think there is a ton of magic that is going into heat treating white 1 that will transform one smiths white 1 to mythical status compared to another (again, if they are both good and experienced.) It's not like a high end PM steel where they are using advanced heat treating ovens and coming up with custom heat treats and quenches at very specific times and temperatures...it's (almost?) all heat treated in the forge and done by eye and experience.

 

[PPIIBBSS]

TF is still the best White 1 followed by Tanaka.
I haven't tried Nakagawa and Unshu Yukimitsu, but Nakagawa doesn't make bad Knife, some of his stuff is better than Tanaka, just because he's young doesn't mean he's less superior to the "Oyaji"

I did think about including TF, but i figured we've all read enough TF threads to know the upsides and downsides of their knives. I've seen Unshu Yukimitsu mentioned a few times, and ppl seem to claim that his white 1 is on par with TF, which is quite a claim! But discussions about his blades are rare, so I'm keen to learn more.

Interestingly, I've read more posts praising Tanaka's blue 1 than his whites

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Togashi edges out Tanaka for me just slightly, but not sure if it's a super fair comparison because Togashi is a Honyaki (although no reason Tanaka can't make his white 1 as hard as a honyaki).

I'ma keep it a buck fifty. Unless you are comparing pretty different carbons like aogami super compared to white 2... I don't think you are going to notice big differences between Japans best blacksmiths with the simple stuff. If you are buying from a smith with a good reputation I would really not be concerned. I don't know Unshu Yukimitsu but it sounds like Michael from knife japan speaks pretty decently of them so I am sure they are great.

I know you you talked about geometry being more important which is definitely good that you know, I'm just trying to say I don't think there is a ton of magic that is going into heat treating white 1 that will transform one smiths white 1 to mythical status compared to another (again, if they are both good and experienced.) It's not like a high end PM steel where they are using advanced heat treating ovens and coming up with custom heat treats and quenches at very specific times and temperatures...it's (almost?) all heat treated in the forge and done by eye and experience.

This is a very good point, and a healthy perspective to take. These guys are all inredibly skilled craftsmen, and if I did a blind test, I bet I wouldn't be able to tell which was which. I already know the shape of the Yukimitsu will be good for me, cuz I'm a rock chopper, so I like that generous curve. Thanks for your input!

 

[jedy617]

I did think about including TF, but i figured we've all read enough TF threads to know the upsides and downsides of their knives. I've seen Unshu Yukimitsu mentioned a few times, and ppl seem to claim that his white 1 is on par with TF, which is quite a claim! But discussions about his blades are rare, so I'm keen to learn more.

Interestingly, I've read more posts praising Tanaka's blue 1 than his whites

Tanakas blue is legendary of course. I believe it does take a tad more skill to do well since it has some alloying elements compared to white. I hate his white 2, some share similar views and some not so much, maybe I got a dud. I would heartily recommend his white 1, have it and use it. Any reason you are looking for white 1 in specific compared to any others?

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Tanakas blue is legendary of course. I believe it does take a tad more skill to do well since it has some alloying elements compared to white. I hate his white 2, some share similar views and some not so much, maybe I got a dud. I would heartily recommend his white 1, have it and use it. Any reason you are looking for white 1 in specific compared to any others?

I'm honestly not even looking for a white 1 knife necessarily haha, just wanting to increase my knowledge of different craftsmen at the moment. I am at the point where I have a few medium quality blades, and don't "need" any more knives, so I'm trying to just spend time nerding out and learning, while creating a wishlist of smiths and blades to try some day.

White 1 seems to be one of the less frequently discussed steels, from what I've seen. I see a ton of discussion about blues, but whites seem less common in general. As I get more into sharpening, white steel does get more and more appealing though

 

[jedy617]

Fair enough, in terms of sharpening I think all hitachi carbon steels are extremely easy and all take a great edge. Remember even in blues, it's not like there are tons of alloying elements to create lots of very hard carbides. I mean I might spend like...1 more minute to raise a burr on a blue super vs a white 1, if that.

That being said, I do like the idea of trying to find the absolute best makers for their respective steels even if the differences are pretty minute. I think Nakagawa, Tanaka, Togashi, Jiro, and Mizaki are pretty well known for their white steels. I have only tried TF blue super, but I know people like their white 1. Yoshikane maybe too (edit: for white 2 not 1)?

I really like that apparently a retailer said recently that Mazaki got some of his white steel knives tested at 64 or 65hrc. Cool to see because besides larger operations that deal with more PM steels like Sukenari, it's pretty rare to see real hrc results for japanese smiths. For example for Tanaka white1/blue 1 I have seen stated specs on many websites anywhere between 60 to 65hrc. All other things being equal for a carbon steel just gimme the highest hardness I can get.

 

[FishmanDE]

Curious to how many of you own the knives discussed? Lots of names thrown out, just wondering to what capacity everyone’s dealt with

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Fair enough, in terms of sharpening I think all hitachi carbon steels are extremely easy and all take a great edge. Remember even in blues, it's not like there are tons of alloying elements to create lots of very hard carbides. I mean I might spend like...1 more minute to raise a burr on a blue super vs a white 1, if that.

That being said, I do like the idea of trying to find the absolute best makers for their respective steels even if the differences are pretty minute. I think Nakagawa, Tanaka, Togashi, Jiro, and Mizaki are pretty well known for their white steels. I have only tried TF blue super, but I know people like their white 1. Yoshikane maybe too (edit: for white 2 not 1)?

I really like that apparently a retailer said recently that Mazaki got some of his white steel knives tested at 64 or 65hrc. Cool to see because besides larger operations that deal with more PM steels like Sukenari, it's pretty rare to see real hrc results for japanese smiths. For example for Tanaka white1/blue 1 I have seen stated specs on many websites anywhere between 60 to 65hrc. All other things being equal for a carbon steel just gimme the highest hardness I can get.

Oh of course Tanaka has to make the list! It's just that his blades are usually rather low and flat for my taste. I do like some of the blue 1 blades he did with Migoto Cutlery. They seem a bit taller and have a more agressive curve. I know I should really push chop, but after nearly 20 years of professional cooking with rock chopping on german blades, I don't see myself changing soon haha.

In the end, accessibility is also a factor here. I am not at the point yet where I can buy a used blade and evaluate the condition, so I prefer to buy new, and with names like Jiro and Tanaka, that's no easy task. Same reason I'm starting to shy away from TF- the inconsistency franly intimidates me at this ealry stage in my knife journey.

Maybe I'll do another steel showdown post at some point. These are fun discussions, and it could make for an engaging series of posts!

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Curious to how many of you own the knives discussed? Lots of names thrown out, just wondering to what capacity everyone’s dealt with

Personally, I own zero of them haha. Just getting my feet wet and acquiring knowledge!

 

[jedy617]

Oh of course Tanaka has to make the list! It's just that his blades are usually rather low and flat for my taste. I do like some of the blue 1 blades he did with Migoto Cutlery. They seem a bit taller and have a more agressive curve. I know I should really push chop, but after nearly 20 years of professional cooking with rock chopping on german blades, I don't see myself changing soon haha.

In the end, accessibility is also a factor here. I am not at the point yet where I can buy a used blade and evaluate the condition, so I prefer to buy new, and with names like Jiro and Tanaka, that's no easy task. Same reason I'm starting to shy away from TF- the inconsistency franly intimidates me at this ealry stage in my knife journey.

Maybe I'll do another steel showdown post at some point. These are fun discussions, and it could make for an engaging series of posts!

I have something that might fit the bill for you perfectly. This is the Junpaku, a Y Tanaka white 1 stainless clad. This one is decently taller, about 52 or 53mm.

I also just got this Yugiri, which is 55mm tall which is quite tall for him. Stainless clad blue 1

If you want taller white 2, I know there is the Sakai Kikumori Asagairi, Tanaka white 2 at about 55mm like the above, iron clad.

 

[PPIIBBSS]

I have something that might fit the bill for you perfectly. This is the Junpaku, a Y Tanaka white 1 stainless clad. This one is decently taller, about 52 or 53mm.

View attachment 246776


I also just got this Yugiri, which is 55mm tall which is quite tall for him. Stainless clad blue 1

View attachment 246777

If you want taller white 2, I know there is the Sakai Kikumori Asagairi, Tanaka white 2 at about 55mm like the above, iron clad.

Oh man I'm drooling! That Yugiri is a beauty! I'll look into that Sakai Kikumoiri knife as well, as I've been more attracted to iron clad lately.

This blade here is a good example of my ideal profile. Very strong curve on basically half of the blade. I'm not sure if this would be considered "bullnosed," but I don't eat meat, so I'm almost never slicing.

https://migotocutlery.com/products/migoto-blue-1-gyuto-240mm

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I don't own a Nakagawa and won't own a TF but I have and do own a quite a few shirogami-core knives, including a Yukimitsu.

As @jedy617 says, in practical terms you don't notice much difference. On the stones, the Yukimitsu feels harder than others but again, as long as you do some semi-regular maintenance, it's tough to tell them apart in performance.

I do however very much like my Yukimitsu. I have the k-tip gyuto and the grind is excellent. Very nimble and slicey. Very good value.

 

[shobudonnie]

TF white 1: probably the sharpest and longest lasting white 1 out there. But brittle.

Tanaka, nakagawa, togashi white 1: all on par. You won’t be able to tell whose white 1 is which blacksmith’s.

I prefer white 1 that is done by the Sakai smiths over TF for being less brittle.

But at the same time, I prefer Sakai blue 1 and TF blue super over any white steel.

If you work in a professional setting, white steel won’t provide the edge retention that is needed to cut cut cut all day.

 

[blokey]

Oh man I'm drooling! That Yugiri is a beauty! I'll look into that Sakai Kikumoiri knife as well, as I've been more attracted to iron clad lately.

This blade here is a good example of my ideal profile. Very strong curve on basically half of the blade. I'm not sure if this would be considered "bullnosed," but I don't eat meat, so I'm almost never slicing.

https://migotocutlery.com/products/migoto-blue-1-gyuto-240mm

Yugiri or Migoto are all excellent, if you can wait for them I’d suggest doing so.

 

[deltaplex]

@refcast

 

[refcast]

Uh, any of those is fine to me. I've had shiraki white 2 who taught nakagawa, but no white 1 from them. I've had some Sakai white 1, but it felt more similar to white 2 than not. I've had white 2 from nagahiro and ouchi that are as hard as tf white 1. I'm also a person who is fine with using vg and ginsan, so . . . Anyhow, unshu seems to be on the harder end of white steel.

 

[DitmasPork]

I love a good white 1.

Never wanted to try a TF Maboroshi—happy with my Denka.

Of my w1—Jiro is tops for me, not as brittle, chippy as my two w1 Satoshi Nakagawas. Both are very, very good, but Jiro edges out Satoshi for me.

Only tried b1 and w2 from Y Tanaka.

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Anybody have any input as to how Carter and Muteki might fall into this mix? A true Carter is way out of my price range, but always fun to talk about

 

[jedy617]

Anybody have any input as to how Carter and Muteki might fall into this mix? A true Carter is way out of my price range, but always fun to talk about

They are quite fantastic in my experience. I have had a white 1 muteki from Jamison Chopp (he has his own shop now and has 25% off right now btw check his insta for a code) and it was outstanding. I miss that knife. Very hard steel, sharpens up really nice.

 

[Ochazuke]

I think I'm probably the only person on the forum with this opinion, but I've come to love white 2 more and more. My ride or die right now is a Nakagawa white 2. Every person's experience and preferences vary, so keep that in mind. It's better to know what works for you, rather than buying bases on "specs." If you have the opportunity (which not all of us have) try a bunch of different options before plunking down big money.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I already know the shape of the Yukimitsu will be good for me, cuz I'm a rock chopper, so I like that generous curve.

I've got a 230 k-tip Unshu Yukimitsu and it has a pretty flat profile. Combined with its desire to bite in to the board it's the least rock-chop-friendly knife I own.

Jury is still out on edge retention for me, but it does feel harder than other whites and is nice on the stones. I love the grind though, veggie monster.

 

[PPIIBBSS]

I've got a 230 k-tip Unshu Yukimitsu and it has a pretty flat profile. Combined with its desire to bite in to the board it's the least rock-chop-friendly knife I own.

Jury is still out on edge retention for me, but it does feel harder than other whites and is nice on the stones. I love the grind though, veggie monster.

Hmm this is very good to know! In the end, I would have to get my hands on a few of these blades before I'd feel comfortable making any purchases, and this is exactly why! Photos can only tell you so much, and angles can do weird things to make curves look over or under exaggerated.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Hmm this is very good to know! In the end, I would have to get my hands on a few of these blades before I'd feel comfortable making any purchases, and this is exactly why! Photos can only tell you so much, and angles can do weird things to make curves look over or under exaggerated.

Totally get that. It's shirogami #2, not #1, but I've been extremely pleased with the edge retention on my Munetoshi. Fantastic, tough steel. The profile is curvy too and will accommodate your rock chopping nicely. Yukimitsu is top knife in this pic, Munetoshi is bottom.

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Totally get that. It's shirogami #2, not #1, but I've been extremely pleased with the edge retention on my Munetoshi. Fantastic, tough steel. The profile is curvy too and will accommodate your rock chopping nicely. Yukimitsu is top knife in this pic, Munetoshi is bottom.


View attachment 247242

Oh wow that Munetoshi is actually literally the perfect profile for me. I love that extra finger room too... sigh, another to add to the list haha

 

[refcast]

I think I'm probably the only person on the forum with this opinion, but I've come to love white 2 more and more. My ride or die right now is a Nakagawa white 2. Every person's experience and preferences vary, so keep that in mind. It's better to know what works for you, rather than buying bases on "specs." If you have the opportunity (which not all of us have) try a bunch of different options before plunking down big money.

I also like white 2 a lot . . . Funny how that works out in the end. Yeah, though, it really depends on what a person likes. I for instance, also really like SK steel from the classic Tokyo area gyuto makers.

 

[deltaplex]

Totally get that. It's shirogami #2, not #1, but I've been extremely pleased with the edge retention on my Munetoshi. Fantastic, tough steel. The profile is curvy too and will accommodate your rock chopping nicely. Yukimitsu is top knife in this pic, Munetoshi is bottom.


View attachment 247242

Munetoshi looks like it's just below the Unshu in this pic, to me. (unshu, munetoshi, wakui, shindo, kurosaki, top to bottom?)

 

[ethompson]

If you work in a professional setting, white steel won’t provide the edge retention that is needed to cut cut cut all day.

Disagree - my Mazaki shiro 2 could go a full day no problem. I was stropping on a fine stone every other day and sharpening each weekend, when I was daily-driving that knife back in the day.