Why so japanocentric?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by banjo1071, Jun 21, 2013.

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  1. Jun 24, 2013 #121

    JBroida

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  2. Jun 24, 2013 #122

    Marko Tsourkan

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    It has also to do with the difficulty of production and cost. San mai is cheaper than mono steel, and san mai blades are easier to straighten after heat treatment than forged monosteel knives and finish.

    Specializing is good, but I think offering fewer steel is more for convenience, than inability to heat treat several steels equally well if you do it in a controlled environment. It comes down to developing a recipe and following it.

    When you forge in traditional J. way, anneal, grind - that's a different ball game. That requires years to learn and master.. But same can be said for people who forge and make damascus steel (DT, B. Burke, Kramer and others) in the US.

    Now I could sense a little jab on something that I wrote a while back. Let me restate it - over-hardened knife chips, soft knife rolls. So rather than applying a quick fix - microbevel on every blade that chips, maybe it's time to admit the simple truth?

    A well heat treated blade will do neither. People over-harden a blade intentionally to squeeze a little more wear resistance out of steel that doesn't have alloys that contribute to WR, or unintentionally, heat treatment by eye, not adequate temper, etc. You placing a blind trust into a smith is fine with me, but a chipping blade is over-hardened, no matter how you put it. Or maybe you would rather be told stories.
     
  3. Jun 24, 2013 #123

    Chef Doom

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    What if someone wants a knife that hard for a specific reason?
     
  4. Jun 24, 2013 #124

    Patatas Bravas

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    While it shouldn't become an excuse in some circumstances, in others it most certainly is and I think parts of this thread are an example of how members whose first language is English often have no idea what it's like to deal with people in another language, let alone what it's like for members who are using English here as their 2nd language, or 3rd language, etc. Coupled with that, even if a member's first language is English it doesn't mean they write well or are always clear and may not realise either. Sometimes I'd like to see some more thought and consideration given to this as the more open and international this forum is the better I'd say.

    (Incidentally, this isn't necessarily about US and non-US members; there's one and probably several US members whose first language isn't English too.)

    Unfortunate that the number of Japanese members seems to be zero, though there are some members based there.
     
  5. Jun 24, 2013 #125

    maxim

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    I like that :D If you dont understand it better change it LOL

    I know quite a lot of japanese chefs that requast that kind of knives that is super hard ! and Can chip
    And "well heat treated blade" they will call crap
    And what will you say to him ?? Try to heat you blade and quinch it to make it harder :rofl2:
     
  6. Jun 24, 2013 #126

    JBroida

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    San mai is not always less expensive than mono steel, but it is easier to straighten.

    On the over hardened knives, i still think you are wrong there... i've used and sharpened a lot of knives, including yours. There is a lot to be said for knife skills, technique, personal preference, and sharpening techniques. Quite frankly, you dont know what you dont know.
     
  7. Jun 24, 2013 #127

    Marko Tsourkan

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    I can't think of one, short of cutting proteins with barely touching a board. Micro chipping happens from a contact with the board, rather than with a bone or other object.

    Now I will comment on tempering in the oven. How do you think it is done in commercial settings and among many custom makers? In convection ovens and molted salts at about 350-400F for simple carbon steels. Your kitchen oven is fairly accurate in that range. Not so ridiculous an idea, if you ask anybody who ever tried making knives. People do it all the time (if they work out of their garage or have a shop in the backyard).

    M
     
  8. Jun 24, 2013 #128

    maxim

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    Sorry but i agree, there is a lot you dont know what you dont know !

    And also still a lot to learn before make comment like that

     
  9. Jun 24, 2013 #129

    Marko Tsourkan

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    Basics of heat treating is not a rocket science. Every steel manufacturer would have recommended heat treatment chart/graphs and temperatures that can be taken as a base and tweaked for a custom HT. What I stated here is elementary stuff. I don't understand why people find it so hard to believe.

    Anyway, pointless to continue.
     
  10. Jun 24, 2013 #130

    maxim

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    Ohh yeah let me try to explain :D

    Your knives dont chip because they are to soft or they are grownd to thick.
    Because i could make it chip with same angle as Jknives
    Second Mono Steel knives with that heat thread is pain in the ass to sharpen or thin, so if it is to thick at the end in the first place it will be pain in the ass to sharpen or thin.
    Knives that i have tried with that properties as you describe above feel like rubber on the stones. And not pleasant to sharpen for a chef that sharpen knives every day
    And most important for Japanese chefs, yes it can not be as sharp as those super hard knives that you call bad heat treated.

    So i guess if you want to go German road and make your knives for people that prefer German like Henckels knives, you are right and you should go in that direction, so yeah pointless to continue :D
     
  11. Jun 24, 2013 #131

    bieniek

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    What do you call our language? You mean English, that colonized North America? Or do you mean French? Not sure.
    Other thing is, in my little shithole town noone ever heard about I have a bakery older than USA. I have sourdough almost older than USA[OK, I had until my wife killed it in the oven]. Dont talk to me about USA, we dont discuss that here. It is totally unimportant where youre coming from, so dont make yourself feel better.

    I dont really enjoy that tone, like the centre of the universe is actually in USA, why would it be? Its the debt or something?

    So please, I am not saying any other country is better, but just open youre eyes, world is big, one of the best examples is people like my mother. She really is the christian-catholic. She doesnt understand that people from Asia who have multiple times older cultures dont know who Jesus was and plainly talking aint give a crap about him. Not a faith but an early state of fanatism to me, just like your version of nationalistic patriotism.


    And Im going to repeat myself. I tried DT ITK and this was ultramongous dissappointment. That knife sucked arse. Im not saying that to get personal on the maker.
    But my side seems pretty simple: youre not happy with the product, dont sell it.
    And this costs what? Same Euros as Shig?

    I am really welcoming anyone who can prove me wrong. Send me your DT ITK that you think cuts better than Shig. I will eat my shoe publicly if it does. I dont care about retention, I dont care steel, I care cutting pleasure.
    I can polish it before sending back.
     
  12. Jun 24, 2013 #132

    maxim

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    :rofl2:




     
  13. Jun 24, 2013 #133

    kalaeb

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    Marko, you are right, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion.

    The tone of this thread is becomming ridiculous. Knives are like shoes, there is no one pair that will work for everyone, if there was, then all the knives would be the same. As was brought out numerous time, knives are subjective. What works for one may not work for another.

    Having a competition to see which is the best knife is ridiculous, as it would be the subject of the testers preferance and prove nothing in the end except for which style of knife that person prefers.

    Anyone who purchases a knife based of something like that is a fool.

    Develope your own preferances instead of letting the most abrasive and vocal members of the forum tell you what to buy or like.
     
  14. Jun 24, 2013 #134

    maxim

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    :plus1:

     
  15. Jun 24, 2013 #135

    Birnando

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    Aye, there really isn't much more to it.
     
  16. Jun 24, 2013 #136

    rdpx

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    Why do Americans always generalise about everything?

    ;)
     
  17. Jun 24, 2013 #137

    JBroida

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    yup
     
  18. Jun 24, 2013 #138

    ThEoRy

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    Nice strawman argument there. Way to put stuff in my mouth as well. I don't see where all of this ultra patriotic "go usa" nonsense is coming from. No one ever brought patriotism into this.

    1st. What I'm saying about English is that it's a localization issue and whether he did or didn't know or mean to offend with the "Hicksville" comment guess what? IT IS OFFENSIVE. Besides, isn't Norwegian your official or first language? Do you have Ku Klux Klan members over there? Unfortunately, ignorant hate mongering groups do exist here. And trust me, when you are hanging out with a bunch of black friends, you DO NOT go down into Hicksville.

    2nd. Are you really inviting a comparison between a Shigefusa and a MID TECH knife?
     
  19. Jun 24, 2013 #139

    JBroida

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    lets just let this go and move on... not worth arguing about on either side
     
  20. Jun 24, 2013 #140

    Timthebeaver

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    This.

    Plus two years living in America left my proper English in tatters. ;)
     
  21. Jun 24, 2013 #141

    Timthebeaver

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    Indeed. Example being the Masamoto San Mai gyuto which is about twice the price of the KS.
     
  22. Jun 24, 2013 #142

    Timthebeaver

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    Agreed, provided you accept that Santokus are crap and that a 240mm gyuto is the bare minimum you'll need to prepare your dinner.
     
  23. Jun 24, 2013 #143

    Gator

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    Dude, I think you are both, overreacting and misunderstanding. On occasion it does matter where you are coming from and how your words will be interpreted. E.g. hand gesture Ok in US, it means a$$hole in other countries, palm up means stop or welcome in different countries. So, simply put, you might get a fist in your face, while trying to express positive emotions, or get shot for misunderstanding a sign in extreme circumstances.

    I didn't really see that idea coming from any post in this thread. Stating that things mean or can be interpreted differently in US, is just that, and the same applies to other countries as well. What's ok here will not be ok in other places, literally and philosophically.

    We can get along w/o strong emotions I think ;)
     
  24. Jun 24, 2013 #144

    Chuckles

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    Is it common in Norway to involve your immediate family members in arguments?
    Bringing up your own mother's ignorance or lack of cultural relativism to help defend racist connotations about some very nice members of this forum has got to be the most bizarre post I've ever read on this site.

    I've learned today that Norway might as well be the dark side of the moon for how much sense it makes to me.

    Shigefusa against a mid tech. Is that the only American made knife you've handled? If so you've only seen the tip of the iceberg. :2cents:
     
  25. Jun 24, 2013 #145

    Dave Martell

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    Am I crazy or is there like 10 different arguments running in this thread? :D
     
  26. Jun 24, 2013 #146

    stevenStefano

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    Who are you calling crazy? :knight:
     
  27. Jun 24, 2013 #147

    Birnando

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    Now, please do remember that it was another member here that brought up immediate family first...:whistling:

    In honesty though, you would be surprised how similar our two societies actually are, although there are obvious differences.

    And a third point if Bieniek will forgive this:
    He is Polish, not Norwegian :surrendar:
     
  28. Jun 24, 2013 #148

    Marko Tsourkan

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    You have not seen or tried a knife from me, so you don't know how hard or soft they are. My knives are in 62-63RC area, just below what I consider over-hardened.

    You also don't know how thin I grind. If I tell you that I grind thinner than Shigefusa (at the edge and above), you won't believe me either.

    It annoys me that what I am saying is being twisted and distorted, even though it is as plain as the day. Ask any reputable maker here in the US if chipping is a result of overhardening and rolling of a blade being too soft, and you get the same answer answer.

    Here makers use a brass rod test to come up with an optimal tempering temperature so the edge is neither rolling nor chipping. That is the optimal heat treatment.

    I have done it, tested and measured hardness on a hardness tester. You are repeating what you have been told. Where do you get the certainty?
     
  29. Jun 24, 2013 #149

    Mucho Bocho

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    I almost pissing myself with that remark Dave, so funny, you guys, I've never see so much passion and bull **** in my life. Does that mean I can use a deba on my chicken now?

     
  30. Jun 24, 2013 #150

    Chuckles

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    My mom uses a deba on chicken all the time.
     

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