I think butter should be a part of a bread thread.
I've bought the President (French brand) butter a few times over the past year. It's good. But not noticeably better than some of the other Australian brands, such as Western Star.
@Luftmensch you mentioned things going slowly in the cold. My last few loaves have definitely been under proved and today I set out to make a properly fermented dough. With 20% levain, 2% salt and 81% hydration the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F). This seemed very slow to me. Is this sort of timing normal for anyone else at these temps? I used an organic stoneground white flour so no wholewheat or rye.
I wanted to wait to reply. I had some 70% wholewheat, 30% rye, bulk fermenting yesterday. My kitchen wavers between 17°C and 20°C depending on whether we are running the heaters (mostly on the 17-18°C end). Unfortunatly I got distracted during dinner - so my dough had 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. It double in size which is more than I like to let it achieve - so I actually think this bread is over fermented... we'll see. I would have preferred 5-6 hours. In summer... when I do most of my baking (for some reason) i bulk for 2ish hours.
I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce . This might lend some evidence that I the dough over fermented and actually broken down the gluten... we'll see. I am havent decided if I will bake it tonight or let it proof until tomorrow - I should probably bake tonight.
I know flours are different everywhere but I'm always amazed at the 85%+ hydration country style loaves some people seem to shape with ease.
Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.
8 hour bulk is a long time at around room temperature for me but if it rises enough (I do 1.5x but most people say 2x volume) then its fine. I've done 6 hour bulk ferment at ~70F room temperature.the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F).
Damn, 30% rye? You're brave. I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce
I saw someone shaping >100 hydration on youtube. Amazing. I think that for similar protein, white develops stronger gluten than whole wheat. However, the bran in whole wheat absorbs water so it feels drier. I find I just need to trust my percentages and make small adjustments after seeing the results.I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.
Dry and cold is so annoying. To cope with winter, I bought a proofing box. Expensive, but totally worth reliable proof times. I also use a container with volume measurements so I don't have to guess on volume. Its still a pain for final proof, after shaping, though.I found that making bread (and baking in general) is a lot harder in winter than in summer. It's dry and cold here in winter, neither of which are conducive to the dough.
Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.
I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.
Damn, 30% rye? You're brave.
I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.
Looks great! How is the crumb?Just came out the oven!
Looks great! How is the crumb?
I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than thatI am trying to be patient! Will update (probably tomorrow) when the bread has cooled down.
Looks great! How is the crumb?
I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than that
I love the taste after an hour out of the oven. I mean, ok, maybe it'll improve after a day or something, but there's still gonna be some left then anyway!
That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!Really nice and spongy. Soft!
I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.That is a benefit of baking two at a time! You can greedily rip into one and let the other one cool properly.
Yes. If you cut the loaf too soon, it'll still be doughy inside and, because it's hot, more moisture will escape. It's a good idea to wait for at least an hour before cutting into a loaf. But, as I said, and hour and fifteen minutes is my personal limitI think it is more about moisture content control rather than taste? I find that if I lack any patience, the crumb can still be tacky. I think the bread also dries out quicker?
@Luftmensch they look excellent! Do you use any particular brand of wholewheat flour?
That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!
I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.
Doh! I feel like beginner now…
Thanks you!
I suppose the answer is: no?? I just buy what is available. That tends to be Golden Shore (mostly) or White Wings (less often). I should go on an ingredient adventure and experiment.
Bob's Red Mill has some interesting options that I haven't played with yet.
Beginner? Nup! You're a talented guy! Totally within your capabilities
Two is my limit. Fridge and oven space are the limiting factor. I wouldn't enjoy baking one after the other. Two can only just fit into my oven side-by-side. They tend to expand into each other - it makes them a little ugly but they are fine! At a stretch, I could do four small loaves, a pair on two separate levels.
I treat the dough the same for one or two. Stretch and fold or coil fold. Both are pretty scalable. But true; vigourous kneading would be tough for multiple loaves!
My problem is we can't eat two loaves before they go stale!
True that...
It depends on what we are eating. We can easily do two in a soup week. This week our second loaf is looking like it will be going stale.
Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...
I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!
Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...
I think it is important to distinguish between stale and dry. I use "stale" as a taste and is not reversable. "Dryness" is a texture and is generally reversable by adding water to the surface or soaking for a few minutes in extreme circumstances. In my experience, almost all bread goes dry before it goes stale. Some bread obviously goes stale (a baguette from france) and will be unpalatable a day after purchase no matter how much soaking and baking you do.Speaking of staling, I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!
I don't know about stale... but apparently sourdough has an advantage when it comes to mould. Apparently the bacteria in sourdough produce compounds during fermentation that inhibit fungal growth. Go figure! The yeast certainly don't mind. The slight acidity is also a mild preservative
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