Covid: the shape of things to come

[Barmoley]

At some point restrictions had to be lifted as they have a cost associated with them. The administration of the US as well as most other countries had to lift restrictions as people are tired of them and demand the lift as well as refuse to follow. Omicron got many people sick and created some degree of natural immunity, so we are seeing decline of infection, thus the lift of restrictions. This was very much expected and is being done all over the world, not just the US.

 

[user 16756]

yeah well the "people are tired of them and demand the lift as well as refuse to follow" is a real interesting way to decide on public policy when both delta and omicron made absolute out of all the "what are we gonna wear masks forever?" crowd.

ba.2 could definitely do the same and if anyone gets surprised by it happening again that's on them

this whole thing has been an excellent example of how human beings incorrectly assess risk on a personal level, and also are willing to limp along not solving a problem indefinitely rather than pay upfront to fix it. the nominal solution to that problem is to have a governing body which can make some rules and solve the problem quickly to reduce the overall cost. but we can't do that when the "serious", "grown up" solution is to simply stop doing even the half measures.

we should be testing like CRAZY. you need to continue testing until things are over + some period after to confirm.

unfortunately, and I really cant overstate this, the people who think we should return to normalcy are the demographic who have paid the lowest price for it. the least deaths, the least cases, the highest rates of vaccination. I have no positive interpretation for this, it really looks like people just dont give a **** as long as the people who are dying dont look like them.

also want to point out how absolutely hollow the justifications have been. as has been pointed out, somehow all of these "well what about the poor kids falling behind" or "what about the people driving ubers" etc. when you respond by suggesting any solution other than go back to normal is radio silence. which is more or less proof positive those tears are just fake

 

[Barmoley]

yeah well the "people are tired of them and demand the lift as well as refuse to follow" is a real interesting way to decide on public policy when both delta and omicron made absolute out of all the "what are we gonna wear masks forever?" crowd.

ba.2 could definitely do the same and if anyone gets surprised by it happening again that's on them

this whole thing has been an excellent example of how human beings incorrectly assess risk on a personal level, and also are willing to limp along not solving a problem indefinitely rather than pay upfront to fix it. the nominal solution to that problem is to have a governing body which can make some rules and solve the problem quickly to reduce the overall cost. but we can't do that when the "serious", "grown up" solution is to simply stop doing even the half measures.

we should be testing like CRAZY. you need to continue testing until things are over + some period after to confirm.

unfortunately, and I really cant overstate this, the people who think we should return to normalcy are the demographic who have paid the lowest price for it. the least deaths, the least cases, the highest rates of vaccination. I have no positive interpretation for this, it really looks like people just dont give a **** as long as the people who are dying dont look like them.

also want to point out how absolutely hollow the justifications have been. as has been pointed out, somehow all of these "well what about the poor kids falling behind" or "what about the people driving ubers" etc. when you respond by suggesting any solution other than go back to normal is radio silence. which is more or less proof positive those tears are just fake

How do you propose the government should enforce the endless tests or any of the other measures if the population refuses to test or to follow other restrictions. It must be nice to propose solutions that are not implementable in reality and then complain that people don't listens to your solutions. The administration was basically forced to lift restrictions, it is very difficult to keep them and continue to be the administration when your population disagrees with you at least in the US and other countries where population elects its government. Has any country in the world been successful in solving covid problem indefinitely? Even China, with measures that would not work in the US, has lockdowns due to case increases again. They have been successful in minimizing covid damage, but their methods would not work in the US. These methods also don't work to eliminate covid as long as you have travel or you have to do it to the whole world, which again is not possible. You keep on harping on it being a race or socio economic problem, but first the lift of restrictions and protests of restrictions are happening in many relatively homogeneous countries not just the US. Second demographics hit the worst are also asking to go back to normalcy, it is not unique to just the demographics that suffered the least. Free testing is now available in the US, you can order free home tests, or you can go and get freely tested in test centers. You as an individual can also continue wearing a mask if you so choose. You can also get a free vaccine including the booster.

Your supposed proof that people don't care because they ignore your solutions is only proof that your solutions don't work or are not implementable not that people don't care. It looks like covid is here to stay, like many other easily transmittable, infectious diseases and we will have to figure out ways to live with it.

 

[riba]

Just an uninformed braindump but here it seems to be omicron that is top dog. Hardly anything else left.

Thought the unspoken goal with no more restrictions was to get everybody's immune system a workout (including and especially the no-vaxers) ASAP to lower the impact of a potentially worse variant.
Seems not a bad idea as rules weren't followed anyway by too many people.

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm with you on the testing, yet you also need compliance (both getting tested AND self-isolating) of the population for that to have enough of an effect.

Other than that, who is 'we' and who is 'them', both are not well defined groups to me, so I struggle to follow your reasoning.

Return to normalcy indeed will only make sense with a high vaccination rate and a fair compliance to basic rules, since that is 'a local thing' I do not buy that 'the people who think we should return to normalcy' is associated with those who have paid the lowest price for it at face value? Is that in any specific country, or some folks within a country, global?

 

[user 16756]

I'm with you on the testing, yet you also need compliance (both getting tested AND self-isolating) of the population for that to have enough of an effect.

Other than that, who is 'we' and who is 'them', both are not well defined groups to me, so I struggle to follow your reasoning.

Return to normalcy indeed will only make sense with a high vaccination rate and a fair compliance to basic rules, since that is 'a local thing' I do not buy that 'the people who think we should return to normalcy' is associated with those who have paid the lowest price for it at face value? Is that in any specific country, or some folks within a country, global?

in general I am only speaking about COVID in the US. in the same way you wont see me commenting on transmissibility, severity, etc. (unless it's to correct a misunderstanding around the statistical methodology, which I do know something about), you won't see me talking about other places unless it's to ask a question.

in the US especially the most powerful block of voters also happens to have the demographic group where covid deaths have been the lowest per capita by a pretty significant margin. people who dont look like them includes but is not limited to: older folks who are no longer able-bodied (who have been ravaged because of the nursing home situation), black & hispanic folks, the homeless, indigenous folks, people in prison (which in the US is a MASSIVE number), et cetera. those are the people disproportionately paying the price for the good old US cultural touchstone of "idgaf about the consequences of my actions"

the folks who ought to be doing something is a mixture of federal and state governments. but by and large, the federal government has to lead the way because that's where the money is, but also just logistically.

hope that clarifies

 

[user 16756]

How do you propose the government should enforce the endless tests or any of the other measures if the population refuses to test or to follow other restrictions. It must be nice to propose solutions that are not implementable in reality and then complain that people don't listens to your solutions. The administration was basically forced to lift restrictions, it is very difficult to keep them and continue to be the administration when your population disagrees with you at least in the US and other countries where population elects its government. Has any country in the world been successful in solving covid problem indefinitely? Even China, with measures that would not work in the US, has lockdowns due to case increases again. They have been successful in minimizing covid damage, but their methods would not work in the US. These methods also don't work to eliminate covid as long as you have travel or you have to do it to the whole world, which again is not possible. You keep on harping on it being a race or socio economic problem, but first the lift of restrictions and protests of restrictions are happening in many relatively homogeneous countries not just the US. Second demographics hit the worst are also asking to go back to normalcy, it is not unique to just the demographics that suffered the least. Free testing is now available in the US, you can order free home tests, or you can go and get freely tested in test centers. You as an individual can also continue wearing a mask if you so choose. You can also get a free vaccine including the booster.

Your supposed proof that people don't care because they ignore your solutions is only proof that your solutions don't work or are not implementable not that people don't care. It looks like covid is here to stay, like many other easily transmittable, infectious diseases and we will have to figure out ways to live with it.

it's absolutely hysterical that you think I would listen to you about any issues regarding race, demographics, etc. when you literally believe things like "women just dont like knives".

what you have done here is provide an example of exactly what I was talking about, once again. much the same as the conversation around minority kids falling behind where you magically had nothing to say when it was pointed out that there were rather a lot of actual things that could be done about it. the only thing you had to offer was "go back to normal"

it is so plainly transparent where you're coming from that it's not even worth engaging with your (bad) premises.

I could explain to you the ways in which tax penalties, incentives to engage in the right behavior, prioritization by the administration, etc. could at least make an effort, but what's the point? you dont care, you just want what you want irrespective of the impact it has on others. so why should I bother?

 

[Barmoley]

it's absolutely hysterical that you think I would listen to you about any issues regarding race, demographics, etc. when you literally believe things like "women just dont like knives".

what you have done here is provide an example of exactly what I was talking about, once again. much the same as the conversation around minority kids falling behind where you magically had nothing to say when it was pointed out that there were rather a lot of actual things that could be done about it. the only thing you had to offer was "go back to normal"

it is so plainly transparent where you're coming from that it's not even worth engaging with your (bad) premises.

I could explain to you the ways in which tax penalties, incentives to engage in the right behavior, prioritization by the administration, etc. could at least make an effort, but what's the point? you dont care, you just want what you want irrespective of the impact it has on others. so why should I bother?

Please don't waste your valuable time in explaining anything to me, according to you I won't get it anyway. Your supposed solutions are not implementable. All your whining is really just that. We need to go back to normal, whatever this normal will be. This is universally understood everywhere in the world, not just the US. You can blame the administration all you want, but keeping strict restrictions against the backdrop of lower cases and hospitalizations would not be possible for any somewhat democratic government.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Classic response when they don't have a real argument. They disparage the intelligence of people who would make an argument to avoid making any specific counter arguments. And they love to proclaim how it's beneath them / not worth their time (while they responding with paragraphs of text over the course of several hours). It's empty vitriol, which means you've won the debate and they're just trying to inflict collateral damage as they retreat.

Covid is fully endemic and cannot be contained even by the most advanced authoritarian government on the planet. The emergency is over. We lost and now we have to live with it.

 

[user 16756]

Classic response when they don't have a real argument. They disparage the intelligence of people who would make an argument to avoid making any specific counter arguments. And they love to proclaim how it's beneath them / not worth their time (while they responding with paragraphs of text over the course of several hours). It's empty vitriol, which means you've won the debate and they're just trying to inflict collateral damage as they retreat.

Covid is fully endemic and cannot be contained even by the most advanced authoritarian government on the planet. The emergency is over. We lost and now we have to live with it.

1. I provided 5 specific policies that should be continued. not new ones. but apparently "hey maybe just renew these" is too much lol

2. "debate me bro" lol twitter is that way -> Im not here to hash out ideas, especially with you two or the disinformation brigade. what I would like you to understand is I dont value your ideas or Barmoley's on covid, because you dont have valuable ideas on covid.

3. you are reading this as me saying he's dumb, that's not my point at all. my point is that he doesn't actually care, that his actual motivations are not what he's saying they are, which he's demonstrated multiple times. it's not stupidity at all, it's bad faith. being told you're wrong isnt being called stupid, but I could understand how men of a certain generation would not be able to distinguish the difference since it's not something they've really had to hear in their lives.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I'm interested to see how many people still be wearing mask at places like Costco here, one of the most busy in the the US. Walk around punchbowl crater for exercise never felt need to wear a mask, trade winds & hardly anybody doing that walk. I do encounter a few people wearing mask or putting on when they see me coming.

I know a lot of people will stop when it's lifted soon. I've been using kn95 at places like Costco were often a crowd. Those mask are hard to breathe through with any physical activity above normal breathing. The cheap 3 ply paper mask are easier to breathe. I still have plenty of both & will still wear at places like Costco & know won't be alone as seniors & haven't been sick at all in 3 years because of mask & taking precautions.

 

[MarcelNL]

in general I am only speaking about COVID in the US. in the same way you wont see me commenting on transmissibility, severity, etc. (unless it's to correct a misunderstanding around the statistical methodology, which I do know something about), you won't see me talking about other places unless it's to ask a question.

in the US especially the most powerful block of voters also happens to have the demographic group where covid deaths have been the lowest per capita by a pretty significant margin. people who dont look like them includes but is not limited to: older folks who are no longer able-bodied (who have been ravaged because of the nursing home situation), black & hispanic folks, the homeless, indigenous folks, people in prison (which in the US is a MASSIVE number), et cetera. those are the people disproportionately paying the price for the good old US cultural touchstone of "idgaf about the consequences of my actions"

the folks who ought to be doing something is a mixture of federal and state governments. but by and large, the federal government has to lead the way because that's where the money is, but also just logistically.

hope that clarifies

it does!
I do not readily accept that the demographics of any of the two voter blocks drive that sort of decisions for something as an infectious disease, everybody can/will contract Covid, the countermeasures just slow the spread (just see what happens in China) and I seem to recall it was the other party that did and does not want hear anything about Covid or vaccines.

Groups being more affected is IMO not an effect by design but a symptom/side effect of f.e being old and thus more at risk from ANY infectious disease, or making the choice not to be vaccinated, or not being informed, or being told by a religious leader not to get vaccinated. Whatever the reasons are for folks not getting vaccinated is something to do ressearch on to identify them and try inform them. I'm not aware how outreach to the groups you refer to is done or how their access to vaccines differs, I'm sure there is more that can be done to try.

The difference in effect between vaccinated and unvaccinated is the same and clearly visible in the numbers in all countries. The US probably is unique in the world in that it's a country where Covid outcomes can be attributed to political preference so clearly.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...s-exacerbate-republican-democrat-vaccine-gap/

 

[gregfisk]

The bottom line is people can still wear masks if they want to. No one is saying otherwise. We are in a lull right now and many are letting their guard down for good or for the moment. I don’t think the administration has done anything terribly wrong at this point since the public is done dealing with the pandemic whether the government likes it or not.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Democracy is not perfect America unfortunately is more Divided than United States. Across the planet we seem to be going backwards. In 1930's. Germany, Japan, & Italy felt strong leadership with dictatorial powers works best. Communism supposed to be for the communal good was ruled by dictators like Stalin who killed millions. Ukraine suffered under Stalins rule. So many had died in his purges & forced starvation they welcomed the Nazi's.

Putin from the early days of limited power would pocket all the money meant to be spent in a program and then defer the blame elsewhere. He has done that all his career & is one of richest men in the world where in Russia standard of living for the masses is lower than India. Wealth by a few in a large resource rich country. Like North Korea giant pictures of Putin the savior of Russia & Crimea are everywhere. Many Crimean's are missing in Putin's takeover & his puppet ruler.

Like Russia failed in Afghanistan was undoing of America in it's longest war. Just like the 1930's dictators see democracy as weak.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Sorry too political for this forum

 

[ian]

The emergency is over.

I'd push back a bit on this and say "case numbers are low enough now that most poeple want to relax the mitigation measures". The numbers can always go up again, in which case they should be reinstated.

---

I'm still going to mask on campus for the forseeable future. I've been avoiding the inevitable conversation where I tell my students they can exercise their own judgement about wearing masks in class, but I'm not reminding them anymore to mask like I used to. About 1/3-1/2 of them caught covid in the past 3 months.... my university's a petri dish.

 

[inferno]

i haven't worn a mask at all during this pandemic and i'm still alive.
this proves that masks are unnecessary.

 

[MarcelNL]

@inferno You came to the right place

 

[Luftmensch]

@tcmx3,

You and I share many political views in common. At this point in the pandemic I dont know that I can fully agree with what you are advocating. I am wary that what applies to Australia may not apply to the USA - and vice versa.

My major objection with your thinking is this:

you need to continue testing until things are over + some period after to confirm.

What does "over" look like? If there was a chance to contain Covid, that opportunity passed years ago. "Over" for Covid is going to look like "over" for influenza, rhinovirus and the other coronaviruses.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of criticism for how my government handled topics like you mentioned. In my country aged care was bungled. The vaccine rollout was mishandled and slow. Big corporates profited off the income support scheme. We squandered the opportunity to observe the nature of Omicron before releasing the brakes. I can't for the life of me understand why we relaxed mask mandates (they are such a low cost intervention).

I would hope that the pandemic has made people reflect on what is broken in our countries. The importance of healthcare. The fact that we can support low-income workers if we choose. We can massively subsidise childcare if we wish. That the pressures people face in life are magnified by disadvantage. That wealth and opportunity is disproportionally spread across society. That we are vulnerable to shocks in the supply chain because we dont manufacture anything anymore. That housing is unaffordable for many people in our capital cities. The way that supposedly 1-in-100 year climate events keep ravaging our population - during the pandemic we had drought, fires, flood, plagues and flood again.

The pandemic is far from over. It will never be over. The issues I listed above are major structural problems that we could rethink. That we could attempt to fix. If we dont... those problems will never be "over" either. What a world to inherit....

Did my government do the wrong thing in moving rapidly to "live with covid"? It is too early to tell. There is no absolute right or wrong.... there is only what the electorate collectively think. We have an election in several months. Will the electorate punish the current incumbents for moving to "live with covid"... I dont think so. Does that mean the incumbents will win? This is far from certain. In the final analysis, whether there is a change of governments or not, I think you will see the current government being punished for the way the pandemic was handled and many of the important but narrower issues I listed above.

 

[user 16756]

What does "over" look like? If there was a chance to contain Covid, that opportunity passed years ago. "Over" for Covid is going to look like "over" for influenza, rhinovirus and the other coronaviruses.

I would defer to epidemiologists for what R number we would need to fall to for it to effectively be over. I can say though from a measurement standpoint you would want some period after it hit that number of it staying at/below that figure to confirm.

Unfortunately you are not wrong. There is no over anymore. The US government has run out of money to do COVID stuff like keep vaccines free for the uninsured (which will be ending in a few days) because the political will is so weak, but we have 778 Billion to give to the pentagon to buy more POS F-35s Shows you where the priorities of the American electorate lie.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Childcare & preschool education should be supported. Do they call it Kindergarten down under. That's what did my early babysitting learning numbers & letters. In Hawaii kindergarten is available to whoever takes advantage of it.

It is advantageous to take care of yourself with eating healthy exercising. But truth people know it but many not willing to do it. In America many take drugs. That should be part of early education.

Easy to be critical of Government. Blame it on politicians. Personal responsibility means a lot.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

England & France SSBN nuclear subs are from 1990's France late 90's. USA aging Ohio class SSBN is from 1970's. All three countries are working on modern advanced technology replacements. England & USA share work closely together in technology for next generation.

Russia just launched it's newer subs.

US has best attack subs in the Virginia class.

 

[Luftmensch]

Unfortunately you are not wrong. There is no over anymore. The US government has run out of money to do COVID stuff like keep vaccines free for the uninsured (which will be ending in a few days) because the political will is so weak, but we have 778 Billion to give to the pentagon to buy more POS F-35s Shows you where the priorities of the American electorate lie.

We're in lockstep with you. Defence budgets are poorly scrutinised. We have amazing form at bungling defence contracts. The recent French submarine debacle is a great example. We contracted France to build diesel powered versions of their nuclear submarines. We then gave them the finger, cancelled the contract and agreed to buy American/UK nuclear submarines. We have already spend $2.4 billion on the French deal. At the end of the day we have nothing to show for it but diplomatic tension. The new AUKUS deal could cost anywhere between $70 and $171 billion. We're also going to have a capabilities gap as our current submarine fleet is supposed to retire before the new submarines will be delivered. In true form, our current submarine fleet has been plagued by maintenance issues and defects since there were floated.

F35s. Frigates. Helicopters... Thank the stars... we havent had war threaten us for a long time... this allows us the luxury to laugh at our own incompetence. Woe betide; that complacency also means we haven't tested whether we have the capability we assume we do (after a lot of wasted money).

I get that the world is lacing up its boots. I get that you'll regret having inadequate defence capability when you need it.... But Australia is set to increase defence spending up to 2.5% of GDP... I know this is small fry by global comparison. Yet we only spend around ~1.8% GDP on education. Ask the average person on the street which would improve their quality of life more "world class" submarines or "world class" education... I doubt many would opt for the submarines...

 

[Luftmensch]

Childcare & preschool education should be supported. Do they call it Kindergarten down under. That's what did my early babysitting learning numbers & letters. In Hawaii kindergarten is available to whoever takes advantage of it.

Some states use the word 'preschool', other use 'kindergarten'. This makes it a bit muddled... as a result Aussies generally treat the terms as interchangeable. Since we hate pronouncing full words, when used in conversation, kindergarten is often referred to as 'kindy' - though you wont see it in any formal writing.

Depending on the person, you may even hear 'nursery school' - but this is a bit old fashioned. Equivalently, 'early learning' is also used but this is a more recent addition.

 

[Jovidah]

We're in lockstep with you. Defence budgets are poorly scrutinised. We have amazing form at bungling defence contracts. The recent French submarine debacle is a great example. We contracted France to build diesel powered versions of their nuclear submarines. We then gave them the finger, cancelled the contract and agreed to buy American/UK nuclear submarines. We have already spend $2.4 billion on the French deal. At the end of the day we have nothing to show for it but diplomatic tension. The new AUKUS deal could cost anywhere between $70 and $171 billion. We're also going to have a capabilities gap as our current submarine fleet is supposed to retire before the new submarines will be delivered. In true form, our current submarine fleet has been plagued by maintenance issues and defects since there were floated.

F35s. Frigates. Helicopters... Thank the stars... we havent had war threaten us for a long time... this allows us the luxury to laugh at our own incompetence. Woe betide; that complacency also means we haven't tested whether we have the capability we assume we do (after a lot of wasted money).

I get that the world is lacing up its boots. I get that you'll regret having inadequate defence capability when you need it.... But Australia is set to increase defence spending up to 2.5% of GDP... I know this is small fry by global comparison. Yet we only spend around ~1.8% GDP on education. Ask the average person on the street which would improve their quality of life more "world class" submarines or "world class" education... I doubt many would opt for the submarines...

Actually though I agree that defense spending and projects need to be run tighter... shooting down the French deal was the right choice as it was an extreme example of one of those projects just sucking in money, ballooning in cost while going absolutely nowhere.
The French were given the finger because after years all had they to show for the efforts and investments was an ever increasing pricetag. The NH90 is a similarly problematic problem that's controversial even in Europe as a result.

From an alliance perspective - with Australia clearly being reliant on the Americans for security in the region - having American gear actually does make total sense.
Similarly, one often unmentioned aspect of using F-35s is that they are certified for the usage of US nuclear munitions. There also isn't necessarily any competing off the shelf platform Australia could buy that has decent stealth capabilities.

I understand that defense spending is painful, and often seems useless when it's not needed. Defense spending is often a lot like preventive medicine; if it works you don't notice it... But as many have found out in the past, neglecting defense can come at a terrible price. Recent events make abundantly clear that all the international law and economical repercussions are not enough to deter certain actors who insist on redrawing the map through violence.

It's painful because it means you have to make difficult choices in how you spend your budget, and it often means foregoing things that in times of peace you'd much rather spend the money on. The problem is that you cannot wait until a war starts to finally start building and investing in a military. We tried that in the Netherlands before World War 2. The result was several hundred thousand deaths and several years of occupation that only ended because we were lucky enough that someone else was willing to pay the price to end it...

On the whole corona thing; I think we've reached a point where no amount of subsidy is really going to convince many people to get vaccinated. At this point at least you can only hope that milder variants like omnicron at least managed to give a level of natural resistance / immunity that will improve outcomes in future 'rounds'. Because there's just no getting rid of COVID at this point; it really is becoming like another flu. At this point we have to start thinking about how we'll handle future waves... it would be helpful if we could generate some kind of surge capacity in the medical field to handle future recurrences. Medical reservists?

 

[user 16756]

I understand that defense spending is painful, and often seems useless when it's not needed. Defense spending is often a lot like preventive medicine; if it works you don't notice it... But as many have found out in the past, neglecting defense can come at a terrible price. Recent events make abundantly clear that all the international law and economical repercussions are not enough to deter certain actors who insist on redrawing the map through violence.

Im not opposed to spending the money. It creates a lot of jobs. A lot of people in my own family are career military.

But if we in the US can afford that, we can afford boosters, tests, unemployment insurance, direct payments to the service industry so we dont lose so many restaurants, etc.

We should just let the pentagon administer the covid response we'd have infinite money

 

[Barmoley]

I am all for free vaccines, but realistically at this point anyone who wanted to get vaccinated did. I still think low cost vaccines and especially testing should be available, but again people had plenty of time to vaccinate if they wanted to. Spending on defense and military is needed, I just wish it wasn’t as inefficient as it seems to be, yet we need to spend money on it.

 

[Jovidah]

Funny you mention that. There are some countries where the military had a far larger role in the vaccination campaign. Given the respect the miltary in the US seems to have that could have contributed significantly to vaccine acceptance.
The root of the problem in the US is still that the whole COVID response became a political shitshow; that wasn't anywhere near as bad in most countries in Europe. It doesn't help when you have a president who ... well.. I cannot mention because it would just get my post removed again...
Do you really think it would have been such a shitshow if we had Mitt Romney or John McCain in the president's seat?

 

[Jovidah]

I am all for free vaccines, but realistically at this point anyone who wanted to get vaccinated did. I still think low cost vaccines and especially testing should be available, but again people had plenty of time to vaccinate if they wanted to. Spending on defense and military is needed, I just wish it wasn’t as inefficient as it seems to be, yet we need to spend money on it.

Yeah I'm with you on this. The only people I know who haven't gotten vaccinated yet are the people who never will. They've been on the market for about a year now?

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Today first day of no more mask mandate in Hawaii. We were last state. Plenty tourist most from mainland no more lines at airports, proof of vaccine, tests.

Asian tourist not yet but soon as Hawaii has very little cases. My guess many Asians still wearing mask. Here it's up to vendors if employees still wear mask.

Just personal experience say it again for me a mask keeps me from touching my face after being in crowds & touching carts etc. That many people have touched. Gel & mask not sick at all for longest time can remember since before COVID-19. Can remember going to grocery store cashier obviously sick then I'm sick next day.

Because of covid I watched all 6 DVD in my great courses Mysteries of the Microscopic World. About infectious virus & bacteria.
It was made a few years before COVID-19.
Makes you realize how dangerous some strains can be. When hike in forest wet areas always spray on insect repellent since watching that college coarse.