High end knife shops hurting the industry.

[Jovidah]

Whether you like his language or not, his point that there is no right to own high-end knives is accurate. I'm not saying I'm completely on board with all of what he said but the idea that prices should be kept low so "poor people" can enjoy the hobby as well is absurd.

I know it's a fact of life; this is simple market mechanics and I'm not telling shops what they should and shouldn't do. I just struggle to understand a world view where it's described as a good thing that people are priced out of a hobby. Does it make your knives perform less if more people could have them as well? Would the world really stop turning if everyone was somehow able to buy great knives?

EVERYTHING is going up. The rate at which it is increasing might vary but everything is going up no matter where you are.

Don't underestimate the magic of exchange rates. I think it'll cushion USD prices a lot when it comes to Japanese and European knives bought in the US.
That being said for Europeans you're likely completely correct. Already saw some price increases (for example K-Sabatier).

 

[Dhoff]

EVERYTHING is going up. The rate at which it is increasing might vary but everything is going up no matter where you are.

Hopefully wages go up too at some point

 

[MowgFace]

We are seeing 25-50% increases at the component and raw materials levels. Some places up to 800%.

@HumbleHomeCook is right. We have just started to see it, but we are going to see widespread inflation across the world. In our Budget for 2023 we have raised our prices by like 25%

 

[Luftmensch]

I just struggle to understand a world view where it's described as a good thing that people are priced out of a hobby. Does it make your knives perform less if more people could have them as well? Would the world really stop turning if everyone was somehow able to buy great knives?

No... but here is the thing... You can interpret the phrase 'high end' multiple ways... Does it mean high performing? Does it mean high craftsmanship? Does it mean expensive??

There is no need to conflate expensive with performance. I think a mass manufactured, high performing knife should be accessible to as many people as possible. I never spent much time exploring that space... but I am sure it exists. KKF represents a minority consumer group. We like to geek out about the hottest trends/blacksmiths. This can tip into the irrational. And many times that 'high end' doesn't necessarily equate to great leaps in performance.

People being priced out of the 'high end' (as in expensive/luxury) things?? I dunno... I am apathetic about that. Perhaps I dont think it is a 'good thing'... I think it just... "is"...

As much as I wish the world were different... it isnt...


I dont want to put words in @DitmasPork's mouth... but I interpreted his meaning of "good" through this sentence:

The higher the price of custom knives—the more attractive the field is for young makers to seriously enter the craft with aspirations to make a business out of it.

If blacksmiths can make a living wage off their craft, more people will be inclined to try it. Ultimately that should be good for us. Maybe it means custom work from A-list blacksmiths will be out of reach for most... but it could also mean there will be a bigger cottage industry for us to participate in... or other makers tweaking their production to offer products at different price points.

 

[jedy617]

Why is it that most of the hype expensive stuff seem to be western these days? Besides the obvious (Kaiju, shig, Kato) and even in relation those seem easier/cheaper to get them some. Is it just that the Japanese makers seem to pump out way more stuff and the smiths have help because they don't grind the knives?

Kind of a tangent but something I thought about. I still think there is so much value in the fact you can get a Y. Tanaka, nakagawa, tetsujin, etc etc for $300+ ish. Still so much amazing value to me.

I prefer buying direct from a maker whenever possible. Only reason I'll buy from a shop is added value like modern cooking does with exclusive stuff with the MCX line, or great customer service.

I agree with the main point of the thread. However there are thousands of much more affordable newer (and even some not so new) makers that you can buy direct from that aren't hype. Isas and HF for example are my newer ones. Just fantastic stuff and I can get direct. I know this doesn't fix the issue because we all want what we want (being able to buy a Kramer for 1k, etc etc) but it is some consolation.

 

[Delat]

I'm really scratching my head at this part... it sounds awfully elitist. Sounds a bit like wanting to gatekeep 'the plebs' out of a hobby. 'Filtering out buyers' basically means 'making a hobby less accessible to poor people'.

There’s always going to be tiers of pricing though. There’s plenty of darn good knives for <$200. My yoshikane for $250 is probably still one of the best performers on my rack amongst knives costing 3x more.

I think what’s being expressed is that we (as a community) like to see the smiths that are making high-quality, high-performance knives do well enough to be successful, stay in the field, and continue to improve. Personally I don’t see how any Western maker charging less than $800 is making a decent living if it takes them more than a couple days to make a knife.

Hungry newcomers are down in the $300 - $400 range, which is relatively affordable; again strictly talking about Western makers. But IMHO that’s probably barely enough to keep the lights on. I hope the better ones get popular enough to increase their prices, which is maybe a weird thing to say as a consumer but there it is, and possibly this long-winded sentiment of mine is what was being expressed by @DitmasPork

 

[Troopah_Knives]

. I just struggle to understand a world view where it's described as a good thing that people are priced out of a hobby. Does it make your knives perform less if more people could have them as well? Would the world really stop turning if everyone was somehow able to buy great knives?

Sure but it does benefit the maker to get paid more per knife.

Kind of a tangent but something I thought about. I still think there is so much value in the fact you can get a Y. Tanaka, nakagawa, tetsujin, etc etc for $300+ ish. Still so much amazing value to me.

Japanese makers run much larger operations than western makers and the cost of living is also significantly lower. Also, the fit and finish tend to be lower quality so you get much better performance for the money you spend. The fact that hand polishing is the norm for western stuff and a perpendicular ground finish on its own might be enough to explain the difference

Hungry newcomers are down in the $300 - $400 range, which is relatively affordable; again strictly talking about Western makers. But IMHO that’s probably barely enough to keep the lights on. I hope the better ones get popular enough to increase their prices, which is maybe a weird thing to say as a consumer but there it is, and possibly this long-winded sentiment of mine is what was being expressed by @DitmasPork

This is spot on IMO. I'd have to at least double my prices to make it work full-time. Luckily I have other irons in the fire.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Hopefully wages go up too at some point

Wages are through the roof and that is driving a lot of the costs. Two years ago our lowest paying, most basic, no skill required job started at $15/hr with full benefits and two weeks vacation day one.

Today it's $20/hr with huge shift differentials and large hiring bonuses. I assure you, the company isn't just going to eat those costs.

 

[jedy617]

Cost of living even in Japan has risen significantly, most of my friends live there and are struggling to pay rent and even food costs are quite high....I know 2 that are moving back home because they cannot afford rent anymore. I guess it depends where. Osaka vs California or rural Missouri? Lol

But yeah I would agree that a lot of it is down to fit and finish and having large operations and splitting up parts of the job.

But man my hatsukokoro komorebei with a jnat finish and mirror polish for $300...can't beat that (I did get it on sale but normal price is 400ish)

On the same token, western makers who don't charge much for a hand satin boggle my mind. That's a lot of work

 

[BillHanna]

Just from my own experience, I think Spåre way undercharged me for what I got. I think he did me a solid, since I pushed back my date due to life getting wonky at that time. But it also has me determined to get back on his books, no matter the wait. I feel like I owe him money.


Has anyone ever overpaid or sent a tip after purchase?

 

[DrEriksson]

It’s normal that any actor in a supply chain sells for twice the cost of goods. This is not the case for knife makers, as knives have a relatively low material cost, but instead rather high cost for labor.

What Modern Cooking is doing is offering a more efficient way for the knife maker to produce knives. As such the knife maker can reduce their profit margin a bit, but also lower the cost of labor. This model doesn’t work for retailers that manage to buy knives at full price during a regular drop, because there was no efficiency gain for the maker.

I can appreciate all models of knives getting to the market. At least when there seems to be some sort of balance, which I think there is at the moment.

 

[DrEriksson]

Just from my own experience, I think Spåre way undercharged me for what I got. I think he did me a solid, since I pushed back my date due to life getting wonky at that time. But it also has me determined to get back on his books, no matter the wait. I feel like I owe him money.


Has anyone ever overpaid or sent a tip after purchase?

I have paid extra/tipped a handful of times.

 

[ptolemy]

I just watched this video
At some point, he says that his parents and his brother work with him and that his job supports 3 house holds.. That sword took 140 days to make (according to the video). Yes, it sold for a lot of money, but there is also risk involved, and a lot of time invested. And, when you count taxes, hours invested, I do wonder if he was not better off making 30 of the same $2000 kitchen knives... hmmm

In the end. each maker has different costs, from their machine costs, raw supply cost, to being better at other things, like natural marketing and so on...

I think everyone here agrees that most want to see this hobby grow, and in the way that the maker gets the larger profits from his/her work, but most of us do not want to see 'middlemen' using the demand to cut a larger profit for themselves. I think this question has many facets, obviously, and same applies to each store based on their costs and so on, but in the end as I said above, you just have to vote with your wallet and if two stores sell same knife for $200 to $500 apart, only you, and only you can decide what you want to do, patronize one over the other. Maybe cheapest store, is online only machine while other has a B&M presence in a large city, where one can go and actually try those knives (vs a shop in rural area where land and taxes are 1/10ths of the other). Maybe cheaper store owner is a nice guy and the maker sells it to them no questions asked via 1 email, while the one with b&m presence has 20 questions, because he wants to learn and there fore wants to educate his customers. Going back and fourth via email is natural for some, but while others, it's the opposite.

This thread won't have any answers, obviously, but it's def worth breaking it down...

 

[Hockey3081]

@Matt Jacobs

Also have to add that makers are also at fault with this. They actively go into exclusive contracts with such shops and decide that's okay. Some also deserve some blame.

I typically prefer to buy from makers directly whenever possible. That being said, makers have a variety of reasons to work with retailers so I don’t think it’s fair to say they deserve “blame” - they don’t owe anyone anything. Vendors like EE have given lesser known makers a shot and over time raised their stock. I think I recall Aaron Wilburn saying he will always send knives to EE even though he doesn’t need to at this point, solely because they sold his work early on.

Another aspect is selling to a retailer let’s the makers cut out what I would imagine is a reasonable time suck for them- marketing. That includes taking pics and responding to DMs with the inevitable tire kickers. With this model, even if they reduce their normal price to sell to the retailer, they’ve offset that cost by getting more time to make another knife or do whatever they want to do.

 

[gregfisk]

What an interesting thread. I owned and operated an alarm company for 35 years. The industry is not a retail business per say and works off of a reoccurring revenue stream. We work in the same market as companies like Comcast and Verizon in that we rely on monthly income rather than retail markup and profit on product sales.

With that said, and after retiring, I really don’t see an easy avenue for selling custom knives. Makers who have put the time in can most likely make an okay living but without name recognition it seems like a long road to get there. It takes a knife maker months/years of effort to get good at making knives and then you still have to somehow break into the market with your wares. I’m not complaining at all because I don’t have much interest in starting up another business, but I think it’s important to understand how much effort it takes to make a living selling custom knives. I personally don’t think most makers produce near enough of an income stream to make a living at it. Especially for how much time they’ve had to put into perfecting their craft. I’m way faster at making a knife than when I started but even with streamlining the process it’s a fair amount of work to make something really nice.

 

[user 16756]

Wages are through the roof and that is driving a lot of the costs. Two years ago our lowest paying, most basic, no skill required job started at $15/hr with full benefits and two weeks vacation day one.

Today it's $20/hr with huge shift differentials and large hiring bonuses. I assure you, the company isn't just going to eat those costs.

terrible shame our system which can only operate in business as usual mode by forcing people into abject poverty has experienced even the slightest disruption and impacted your ability to get toys at a lower price.

 

[mgardiner]

That’s exactly why he’d complain here: to persuade others not to do business with those actors.

 

[superworrier]

I’m kind of the opinion with these ultra high end knives like Don Nguyens that they are Veblen goods anyway and the rarity/price is part of the appeal Same with the OG Anryus. Thus it doesn’t really matter to me what people do with them. The best value (performance wise) knives have not suffered from this yet

 

[jedy617]

I’m kind of the opinion with these ultra high end knives like Don Nguyens that they are Veblen goods anyway and the rarity/price is part of the appeal Same with the OG Anryus. Thus it doesn’t really matter to me what people do with them. The best value (performance wise) knives have not suffered from this yet

Agreed. Awhile back I was reading on reddit of a knife discord. I jumped in and saw Don in there and told him I would love to order from him some time (not knowing his pricing and his collector status, I just saw a piece he did on there and liked what I saw). I was backpeddling quite quickly. The amount of makers who can make me a hand satin 52100 piece to a high level for literally a few hundred bucks are staggering.

 

[Luftmensch]

terrible shame our system which can only operate in business as usual mode by forcing people into abject poverty has experienced even the slightest disruption and impacted your ability to get toys at a lower price.

Look... I am with you on wages... they have been stagnant for too long. I could join you in a long rant about fixing income disparity... but that is not germane to this thread.

As long as I have been a member of KKF, @HumbleHomeCook has presented as a reasonable person. I dont think the comment was about suppressing wages growth:

Wages are through the roof and that is driving a lot of the costs. Two years ago our lowest paying, most basic, no skill required job started at $15/hr with full benefits and two weeks vacation day one.

Today it's $20/hr with huge shift differentials and large hiring bonuses. I assure you, the company isn't just going to eat those costs.

An increase in labour costs of 33% is significant. The discussion around whether workers deserve that raise (I think they do) is different to whether the consumers should bare the cost (I think, in part, they should). We are addicted to cheap sh!t.

Similar, and more in the context of this discussion, I fully support European blacksmiths passing on the higher cost of fueling their forges on to consumers (and other general inflation). I think that is the point people with manufacturing backgrounds are making (@HumbleHomeCook & @MowgFace).

 

[jedy617]

Personally I think it can be boiled down to "hype" products ruining stuff for people like us. I don't think we need to look deep into wages/the economy or larger philosophical ideas. Even pre pandemic people were willing to pay boatloads for stuff like Ashi honyaki or kaiju (just 2 examples). Some makers/product lines are hyped up....and sometimes retailers take advantage of this to turn an even higher profit because they can offer the satisfaction of buy it now. Similar to grey market watch dealers. I can wait 4-5 years for a stainless steel rolex, or I could buy grey market for 3x the price or more right now.

Even the "good" retailers fall into this I think. Looking back on the JnS archive you could get a damascus kato for $900. I don't think quality or performance has massively changed (yes I know this would be different compared to a younger smith, but 75 vs 80 year old kato? Probably not). We are still guilty of playing into it too. I feel good...and dumb buying a new kato for over 1k myself knowing they used to be a couple hundred dollars.

Again at the same time I think we are at a time where it is really good to be a KKF guy. There is so much out there at great prices. But yeah I get it, it is frustrating to want one of the hyped up pieces and find out a retailer is jacking up the price a bunch. Good news is I feel like most don't do this.

 

[Luftmensch]

I typically prefer to buy from makers directly whenever possible. That being said, makers have a variety of reasons to work with retailers so I don’t think it’s fair to say they deserve “blame” - they don’t owe anyone anything. Vendors like EE have given lesser known makers a shot and over time raised their stock. I think I recall Aaron Wilburn saying he will always send knives to EE even though he doesn’t need to at this point, solely because they sold his work early on.

Another aspect is selling to a retailer let’s the makers cut out what I would imagine is a reasonable time suck for them- marketing. That includes taking pics and responding to DMs with the inevitable tire kickers. With this model, even if they reduce their normal price to sell to the retailer, they’ve offset that cost by getting more time to make another knife or do whatever they want to do.

Right??

Another way to look at blacksmiths is that they are small business owners. If they have a long-standing relationship with a vendor, it can't be arbitrary or by accident. It wouldn't take a lot of detective work for a blacksmith to calculate what margin a vendor is adding. Fool me once or twice... shame on you. Fool me more than that... shame on me! I think it is reasonable to assume that enduring relationships between blacksmiths and vendors are largely transparent, consensual and deliberate. In other words.... the blacksmiths are condoning the vendor markup in return for whatever value the vendor provides (perceived or real). You covered some of these (e.g. marketing and distribution).

I think I recall Aaron Wilburn saying he will always send knives to EE even though he doesn’t need to at this point, solely because they sold his work early on.

I dont know if it is urban myth... but I believe it is the same for Kiya and Shigefusa. Kiya helped Shigefusa 'break through'. Years later Shigefusa still honour that relationship even though they no longer need that exposure and reach.

 

[spaceconvoy]

there is some strange word usage happening in this thread

"market priced knives" any knife that sells for any amount of money is by definition 'market priced,' you just feel like it's too expensive

"price gouging" only applies to the price of necessities, usually only after a natural disaster, but it certainly does not apply to luxury items

"priced out of a hobby" acting like you have the right to participate in a hobby is one thing, but then acting like you can't participate in a hobby just because you can't afford exactly the toy you want is a whole other level

"interesting thread" just the same whining that appears seasonally like clockwork

 

[jedy617]

Meh sometimes people need to vent. No need to read through all of it if the discussion isn't interesting to you. Sometimes it really is annoying even if it is just a toy. I get that

 

[spaceconvoy]

Meh sometimes people need to vent. No need to read through all of it if the discussion isn't interesting to you. Sometimes it really is annoying even if it is just a toy. I get that

 

[ian]

I too am upset that there are things in this world I can’t buy.

 

[Delat]

I too am upset that there are things in this world I can’t buy.

I’m upset I keep buying knives I can afford. Somebody make me stop!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Look... I am with you on wages... they have been stagnant for too long. I could join you in a long rant about fixing income disparity... but that is not germane to this thread.

As long as I have been a member of KKF, @HumbleHomeCook has presented as a reasonable person. I dont think the comment was about suppressing wages growth:



An increase in labour costs of 33% is significant. The discussion around whether workers deserve that raise (I think they do) is different to whether the consumers should bare the cost (I think, in part, they should). We are addicted to cheap sh!t.

Similar, and more in the context of this discussion, I fully support European blacksmiths passing on the higher cost of fueling their forges on to consumers (and other general inflation). I think that is the point people with manufacturing backgrounds are making (@HumbleHomeCook & @MowgFace).

Thanks for being reasonable buddy. I wasn't passing judgement on wage increases, as you say, that's another discussion indeed. I was simply responding to another member's statement and also pointing out the realityt hat businesses aren't gong to absorb those costs.

As for the poster you were responding to, I have no idea what he said as he has occupied my original KKF ignore slot since about five minutes after I arrived. I'm more into debate and respect.

 

[jcsiii]

To the original post. Accept or learn about rules of supply and demand. If you don't want to pay the price you simply don't buy it.

I work in the restaurant industry so all the knives I have personally bought are utilized for my trade and I have purchased a few expensive pieces in my collection. These purchases for me take a lot of planning and time just to be able to afford but I'm ok with it because they have typically met my expectations at the price points I've been willing to spend. Part of this process for me is patience. I'm willing to also collect 2nd hand pieces or take my chances from unknown makers. I'll admit I'm not the usual purchaser though as I'll customize a knife to the point of regrinding, reshaping or thinning the entire blade/replacing modifying the handle if I'm not happy.

The one thing high end knife shops have done that I really do appreciate however is make the knives from unknown knife makers more mainstream allowing them to spread their businesses and grow and in the end I feel it helps the entire knife making community. I can still recall a time when Epicuriean edge was the only place to get your hands on new or unknown knife makers online. Times have changed.

 

[gregfisk]

To the original post. Accept or learn about rules of supply and demand. If you don't want to pay the price you simply don't buy it.

I work in the restaurant industry so all the knives I have personally bought are utilized for my trade and I have purchased a few expensive pieces in my collection. These purchases for me take a lot of planning and time just to be able to afford but I'm ok with it because they have typically met my expectations at the price points I've been willing to spend. Part of this process for me is patience. I'm willing to also collect 2nd hand pieces or take my chances from unknown makers. I'll admit I'm not the usual purchaser though as I'll customize a knife to the point of regrinding, reshaping or thinning the entire blade/replacing modifying the handle if I'm not happy.

The one thing high end knife shops have done that I really do appreciate however is make the knives from unknown knife makers more mainstream allowing them to spread their businesses and grow and in the end I feel it helps the entire knife making community. I can still recall a time when Epicuriean edge was the only place to get your hands on new or unknown knife makers online. Times have changed.

This is a very relevant post IMO. The people who use these knives for their livelihood appreciate the fact that vendors who are willing to support new makers play an important role in providing new products at reasonable prices. If new makers don’t have exposure, then the well established makers tend to have somewhat of a monopoly. This site is so interesting to me because a lot of the people here buy nice knives as a luxury item. I myself have never cared that much about knives but when I retired I started watching YouTube videos and got interested in building a 2x72 belt grinder. I built the machine and then started wondering what in the world am I going to use it for? I ended up making knives because I have an artsy side to me and now have made many. Anyway, my point being, coming from a completely different angle than that of the fancy knife buyer, and being a former business owner, I can appreciate the people who actually buy these really nice knives simply to do their jobs.