This is basically what Japanese shops do. One guy forges blanks in batches and another grinds/stock removes these blanks into knives. Given how many people ask who the sharpener is it seems like the stock removal part is pretty important.
How Important is it to you that your knife is forged?
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Forged geometry is kinda special as it can improve food release. (Carter,Tritz,Catcheside)
That said nowadays CNC machines are able to grind whatever shape you want incl irregular shapes. Thinking of Kippingtons blades, like the fish-hook with hollows in the blade.
That said nowadays CNC machines are able to grind whatever shape you want incl irregular shapes. Thinking of Kippingtons blades, like the fish-hook with hollows in the blade.
Yeah, if the forging can be done quickly it could save a lot on abrasives in the long run, which is where most of the money to be saved is, not in blade material. IIRC the Japanese smiths can pump out 30 blanks in a day....not sure how long their days are, but regardless.
Some of the thickness at the neck on those blades might be from upsetting during forging, not because of thicker starting material though. I'd have to watch some videos again to know for sure.
The best knives I've owned, used, or sharpened have been forged. That could change and it may just be due to the fact that there is more care generally involved with a forged knife and not due to some magical grain structure or such that the forging created... As stated above I think a bunch of things I like about a knife would be easier achieved by forging (for the purpose of making a knife) than stock removal from a piece of bar stock. Distal taper and aesthetics are two that come to mind. I have no experience forging so that's just an assumption.
Why would distal taper be easier? Honest question
My assumption is that forging a blank with a distal taper specific to the knife shape you’re making would be quicker than removing the stock required to achieve that taper. If the taper goes from 7mm to 1mm then (if you have a 7mm thick piece of bar stock there are areas you are going to need to remove 3mm of stock evenly on each side with the accuracy to maintain the taper. I’ve done plenty of stock removal with a bench sander so I’m basing the assumption on how quick I’ve seen smiths forge a blank vs the time I’m estimating it to take me. I’m sure there are plenty of ways (like automation) and skill to speed up that time but that’s my uneducated assumption… anyone who bangs iron w a hammer pls correct me…
Makes sense. I wondered when the automation or more time-savy processes would catch up to swinging the hammer.
NotAddictedYet
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Practically speaking forging vs stock removal should not matter. To me, performance is all about final geometry of the knife assuming heat treatment is the same.
I think Kamon has mentioned on IG that forging isn't necessary but he uses forging to help achieving the desired taper quicker.
Mysticism definitely sells though(see Jiro). Power hammer goes thwack thwack thwack and if people likes that, $$$ flies in.
On the other end, Don Nguyen mainly uses stock removal technique but his knife is also $$$.
I think Kamon has mentioned on IG that forging isn't necessary but he uses forging to help achieving the desired taper quicker.
Mysticism definitely sells though(see Jiro). Power hammer goes thwack thwack thwack and if people likes that, $$$ flies in.
On the other end, Don Nguyen mainly uses stock removal technique but his knife is also $$$.
@Kippington uses 0 CNC machines. Purely belt grinder.
Many smiths can create any shape including taper of any sort purely with stock removal. The limitation would only be the thickness of the original stock they can get. If ApexUltra, for a random example, doesn’t come in 8 mm thick stock then starting at 8 won’t happen unless you forge in which case you can modify what you start with. Other than this you could grind anything, it just sometimes doesn’t make sense to do because of the effort and costs involved. Some of the best tapers and grinds I’ve seen were from stock removal. All these forging romantic notions overlook that most forging is done by power hammers that are machines same as grinders that are also used in either case. It is just a method of getting close to the desired shape.
I strongly disagree with this though
If it were Odin himself and unicorns were involved on a full moon no less, then I don’t know, that might matter
I strongly disagree with this though
If it were Odin himself and unicorns were involved on a full moon no less, then I don’t know, that might matter
I guess "Stock Removal in Fire" didn't test as well with the focus groups
Semantics.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I couldn’t care less. I care about performance, not how it got there.
If I handed you a knife that you’ve never seen before, could you tell how it was made? If the answer is “no”, by definition, any difference exists only in your mind.
If I handed you a knife that you’ve never seen before, could you tell how it was made? If the answer is “no”, by definition, any difference exists only in your mind.
Kippington
A small green parrot
omg I wish I had one hahahaha
chefcomesback
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All of the knives can be classified “forged “ unless you are casting your steel to thin long bars . After all the steel is hot rolled , stretched and elongated at the mill.
If you are talking about forging to final shape few minutes of hammering may save you an hour on grinder . It’s not feasible to make forge finish thick spine knives via stock removal , while they may take 4/5 heats only with power hammer. Forging will allow you to establish geometry prior to grinding or heat treatment. I forge all of my knives including my stainless wootz
While technically they should perform the same you can judge if it’s stock removal or forged by etching ( works in higher carbon and alloy steels ) . On a side note in aircraft/ race engine components they prefer forged pieces over stock removal ones where the parts are under massive stress
If you are talking about forging to final shape few minutes of hammering may save you an hour on grinder . It’s not feasible to make forge finish thick spine knives via stock removal , while they may take 4/5 heats only with power hammer. Forging will allow you to establish geometry prior to grinding or heat treatment. I forge all of my knives including my stainless wootz
While technically they should perform the same you can judge if it’s stock removal or forged by etching ( works in higher carbon and alloy steels ) . On a side note in aircraft/ race engine components they prefer forged pieces over stock removal ones where the parts are under massive stress
Sorry, that wasn't what i wanted to say. That fish-hook with the hollows along the edge just looks like it could be done with a CNC.
And yes, these machines are very expensive.
"Much cheaper" to send in your piece of metal and a drawing and outsource that step.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
What, you don't have a belt grinder?
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can the option 'I doubt we can show any performance difference is due to being forged or not" be added? all options seem to imply there is a distinguishable performance difference, 'I see no difference' IMHO means that you have looked at the right parameters...
TBH very thin stamped knife with a angle added on top is what most people think of stock removal, but something made by an experienced knife maker that can replicate the complicated forged geometry and taper can be as good and sometimes with even more precision.
NotAddictedYet
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Probably a question for makers, I wonder if creating significant taper with stock removal burns a lot of belt/time vs forging?
Bidinger had a story on Instagram a few months back expressing that exact thing - he was doing a taper on thick stock and it took him a lot of time and belts.
Kippington
A small green parrot
It's highly dependant on the size and strength of the forge, the grinder and the (power) hammer or press. Also the thickness of the starting stock and the dimensions of the knife.
With my personal setup, it takes roughly 20 times longer to forge out a taper. So I just grind it off instead. Belt cost is less than the fuel cost for the forge.
Theoretically, my guess is that die forging with one of those massive industrial presses would be the fastest. Imagine forging a knife in one heat, one strike in half a second, then its still hot enough to go straight into the quench...
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Drop forge would be nice, but seems like the quality of them are going down a lot in modern times… all the German and French makers lost all their tapers for some reason… is there any reason for that?
I have one of those unfinished old stock Sabatiers that has been drop forged but then set aside in a warehouse and forgotten and sold to me 80 years later. It's pretty much as wide as the edge as it is at the spine and disregarding the finger guard, is as thick at the toe as the heel. At least from that era, any taper, from spine to edge or distal, was being ground in after drop forging.
Gotcha… so they just dropped the whole finishing process
Edit: Fell Knife actually got bunch of untreated blanks. reforged and grinder them, he’s selling them now, quite nice looking
They might have hammered them then ground them. But definitely out of the drop forge they came out with very little taper.
Most of that taper was put in there grinding I imagine. And the reason why they aren't as good at it today is probably a combination of cost cutting, automation, and customers complaining about chipped edges.
FloWolF
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A friend of mine took my number and some photos of my knives to some local chefs he works with. I got a message back a couple days later just saying "you a blacksmith". I explained I make knives by stock removal and never heard another word back. I even sent him a follow up message a couple of days later explaining I had a 3 burner propane forge and if it made a difference to anyone I could make my knives hot and hit them with a hammer a bit for no extra charge. Still not impressed. Heh.
