How to maintain Kiwi knives?

[10160]

Kiwi brand knives from Thailand - I am going to give a set to some friends who use crap dull knives.

Question is, how do you maintain these things?
The friends in question are not going to be learning how to use a whetstone anytime soon.

My thinking is give them a leather strop for daily maintenance, and then a ceramic honing rod for sharpening every other day? and just ditch the steel.

Any thoughts

 

[blokey]

A regular honing rod will do the job

 

[Jovidah]

You buy a new one?

 

[mengwong]

Odds are, maintenance will simply not happen… there is room for a business model innovation maybe around a knife subscription service, the way some restaurants do it, but B2C instead of B2B. I’m not aware of any hugely successful experiments yet though.

Restaurant example: Knife Subscription | High-Grade Japanese Knives Forged in Sakai

Knife subscriptions in the EDC world: https://hellosubscription.com/best-knife-subscription-boxes/

New knives every two months is closest to what I’m thinking of: https://www.thekitchn.com/togu-knives-review-23139359

The natural dual is, of course, sharpening by mail: 5 By-Mail Knife Sharpening Services You Should Definitely Be Using

Kiwi knives are cheap enough to be considered disposable so Amazon should just promote them in FMCG channels alongside pet food and laundry detergent.

I suspect the play here is to innovate a brand which educates consumers that it’s okay to throw/give away. The brand identity itself has to be the differentiator since there’s no defensibility vs Cutco etc.

 

[mengwong]

You buy a new one?

I think this is the right answer: by analogy to the adjacent vertical, shaving razors.

https://www.mysubscriptionaddiction.../the-best-razor-subscriptions-and-shave-clubs

 

[Nemo]

Super soft steel. The advertise it as "Japanese knife steel" but it’s hard to find which steel it actually is. I found a couple of sites that said it was SUS420J2, which is a low carbon (0.15-0.35%) stainless steel. Expect poor edge retention. My experience with them concurs.

You could consider getting them a single Victorinox chef (and maybe a paring as well) instead.

 

[daveb]

Kiwi's saving grace is that they are so thin (compared to Henks, Wusties, Shun) that they seem sharp forever. A dull Kiwi will still cut.

Suggest you buy them one or two, see if they use them, if yes then buy em a couple more next year.

 

[blokey]

Odds are, maintenance will simply not happen… there is room for a business model innovation maybe around a knife subscription service, the way some restaurants do it, but B2C instead of B2B. I’m not aware of any hugely successful experiments yet though.

Restaurant example: Knife Subscription | High-Grade Japanese Knives Forged in Sakai

Knife subscriptions in the EDC world: https://hellosubscription.com/best-knife-subscription-boxes/

New knives every two months is closest to what I’m thinking of: https://www.thekitchn.com/togu-knives-review-23139359

The natural dual is, of course, sharpening by mail: 5 By-Mail Knife Sharpening Services You Should Definitely Be Using

Kiwi knives are cheap enough to be considered disposable so Amazon should just promote them in FMCG channels alongside pet food and laundry detergent.

I suspect the play here is to innovate a brand which educates consumers that it’s okay to throw/give away. The brand identity itself has to be the differentiator since there’s no defensibility vs Cutco etc.

Some small shops does use them, they recycle used knives and resharpen them. But the quality is as you’d expect.

 

[Beerzebub]

You could consider getting them a single Victorinox chef (and maybe a paring as well) instead.

I think that's a great idea if you can stretch your budget a bit, and look at the in-between sizes like 150mm and 120mm, super utilitarian.

 

[Beerzebub]

Kiwi's saving grace is that they are so thin (compared to Henks, Wusties, Shun) that they seem sharp forever. A dull Kiwi will still cut.

Yep, especially if you thin around their super concave bevels.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I almost never say this and typically cringe when others do but... The bottom of a coffee cup or plate should do.

 

[blokey]

Super soft steel. The advertise it as "Japanese knife steel" but it’s hard to find which steel it actually is. I found a couple of sites that said it was SUS420J2, which is a low carbon (0.15-0.35%) stainless steel. Expect poor edge retention. My experience with them concurs.

You could consider getting them a single Victorinox chef (and maybe a paring as well) instead.

That’s the same steel as Kamikoto, but in this case actually worth the money

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

420J2 is often used as cladding. At least outside of the kitchen knife world. It is also often the ubiquitous "surgical stainless" steel.

 

[Beerzebub]

420J2 is often used as cladding. At least outside of the kitchen knife world. It is also often the ubiquitous "surgical stainless" steel.

Sounds like a euphemism for disposable alright!

 

[mengwong]

Thinking through the unit economics a little more…

For the “Maintenance? Never!” convenience-maxxing segment:

Togu: VG10 santoku + petty, $6/wk = $300/yr for a fresh set of 2 every 2 months
https://www.toguknives.com/pages/faq
Similarly: $120/yr for 1 knife every 4 months
https://www.knifey.net/pages/the-service$256/yr for 3 knives every 3 months
https://postknife.com/products/3-sharp-knives-subscription
Sharpening by mail:
Korin, Knife Aid: $15/knife = $180/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months
Seisuke, Precision: $5/knife = $60/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months

(Normalizing to Togu’s frequency)

Kiwi on Amazon Prime: nakiri + bunka, $12 = $72/yr for a new set of 2 every 2 months
https://a.co/d/2wBeek3
Conclusion: Everybody who doesn’t want to learn to sharpen should just buy a new set of Kiwis every time they go dull, and throw or give away the old.

New Venture Opportunity: “for $100 a year you get two new Kiwi knives every three months. The old knives you can keep, discard, or give away to friends. You can use our mailer to send back old knives anytime so they don’t become clutter.”

The upsell for people with more money than whatever: “for $2000 a year you get two freshly sharpened knives every three months, but the knives are Japanese and worth up to $300 apiece on the open market. At the end of your first year you will have received four gyutos, two pettys, one nakiri, and one sujihiki. As always, send back the ones you don’t want to sharpen and we’ll recycle them for you. Sure, you could buy new knives yourself every quarter, but what you’re paying for is convenience – one less thing to remember – and easy disposal of the dull knives in a socially responsible way. In your second year you get a Chinese chopper instead of the sujihiki. Third year, a deba. Fourth year, a yanagiba. Fifth year, a stainless clad san-mai 240mm with an Apex Ultra core.”

Coda:

Compared with self sharpening:
Norton coarse/fine: $26
Atoma 140: $55
Victorinox 8" chef + petty: $80
Total = $160 buy once cry once

Obviously self-sharpening is easiest on the wallet. Compared to the Kiwi option it pays for itself after two years. And we all know that after acquiring the BIFL kit above nobody would ever need to buy another knife or another stone, amirite guys? Guys?

 

[blokey]

Thinking through the unit economics a little more…

For the “Maintenance? Never!” convenience-maxxing segment:

Togu: VG10 santoku + petty, $6/wk = $300/yr for a fresh set of 2 every 2 months
https://www.toguknives.com/pages/faq
Sharpening by mail:
Korin, Knife Aid: $15/knife = $180/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months
Seisuke, Precision: $5/knife = $60/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months

(Normalizing to Togu’s frequency)

Kiwi on Amazon Prime: nakiri + bunka, $12 = $72/yr for a new set of 2 every 2 months
https://a.co/d/2wBeek3
Conclusion: Everybody who doesn’t want to learn to sharpen should just buy a new set of Kiwis every time they go dull, and throw or give away the old.

New Venture Opportunity: “for $100 a year you get two new Kiwi knives every three months. The old knives you can keep, discard, or give away to friends. You can use our mailer to send back old knives anytime so they don’t become clutter.”

The upsell for people with more money than whatever: “for $2000 a year you get two freshly sharpened knives every three months, but the knives are Japanese and worth up to $300 apiece on the open market. At the end of your first year you will have received four gyutos, two pettys, one nakiri, and one sujihiki. As always, send back the ones you don’t want to sharpen and we’ll recycle them for you. Sure, you could buy new knives yourself every quarter, but what you’re paying for is convenience – one less thing to remember – and easy disposal of the dull knives in a socially responsible way. In your second year you get a Chinese chopper instead of the sujihiki. Third year, a deba. Fourth year, a yanagiba. Fifth year, a stainless clad san-mai 240mm with an Apex Ultra core.”

Coda:

Compared with self sharpening:
Norton coarse/fine: $26
Atoma 140: $55
Victorinox 8" chef + petty: $80
Total = $160 buy once cry once

Obviously self-sharpening is easiest on the wallet. Compared to the Kiwi option it pays for itself after two years. And we all know that after acquiring the BIFL kit above nobody would ever need to buy another knife or another stone, amirite guys? Guys?

No thanks I will just impulse buy expensive artisan knives sharpen them few times then realize I have too many knives and sell them at a loss on BST

 

[10160]

Odds are, maintenance will simply not happen… there is room for a business model innovation maybe around a knife subscription service, the way some restaurants do it, but B2C instead of B2B. I’m not aware of any hugely successful experiments yet though.

Restaurant example: Knife Subscription | High-Grade Japanese Knives Forged in Sakai

Knife subscriptions in the EDC world: https://hellosubscription.com/best-knife-subscription-boxes/

New knives every two months is closest to what I’m thinking of: https://www.thekitchn.com/togu-knives-review-23139359

The natural dual is, of course, sharpening by mail: 5 By-Mail Knife Sharpening Services You Should Definitely Be Using

Kiwi knives are cheap enough to be considered disposable so Amazon should just promote them in FMCG channels alongside pet food and laundry detergent.

I suspect the play here is to innovate a brand which educates consumers that it’s okay to throw/give away. The brand identity itself has to be the differentiator since there’s no defensibility vs Cutco etc.

doesnt answer my question.

 

[10160]

A regular honing rod will do the job

what does regular mean.

 

[Jovidah]

One without lube.

 

[blokey]

what does regular mean.

Non ceramic just steel honing rod, get a smoother one if you can

 

[Matt Jacobs]

Yep, just a cheap metal rod will keep these nice and sharp. Eventually they will start to show deformation and need a quick sharpening but again its probably cheaper to buy another set and ship to them every 6 months or so.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Street vendors in Thailand sharpen them over and over on plain silicon carbide benchstones. No real rocket science there.

 

[10160]

Yep, just a cheap metal rod will keep these nice and sharp. Eventually they will start to show deformation and need a quick sharpening but again its probably cheaper to buy another set and ship to them every 6 months or so.

so no ceramic, just use steel?
and what about leather strop

 

[mengwong]

Why not something diamond like this

Kota Japan 12 in. Diamond/Ceramic Dual-use Professional Knife Sharpener Rod | Kitchen, Home or Hunting | Master Chef, Hunter or Home Gourmet Steel Blade Sharpening Rod or Stick. https://a.co/d/4sYeVef

 

[the_jest]

I hope it's not derailing things to ask a somewhat related question:

If you bought a couple of Kiwi knives for the sole purpose of practicing sharpening, what are the main things to keep in mind? That is, Kiwis are much thinner, and worse metal, than most "good" knives such as we discuss in this forum. You can't thin them, for example. And some of the previous responses in this thread discuss how you would sharpen them for the purpose of keeping them sharp. But if you want to do all the things you'd do to sharpen a "real" knife--use a progression of good stones, feel and remove a burr, etc.--how would their Kiwi-ness affect the way in which you would do things?

 

[mengwong]

what about leather strop

Unlikely to add much value outside of sashimi or meat butchery imho

 

[mengwong]

how would their Kiwi-ness affect the way in which you would do things?

Not having used one myself I would speculate that the edge bevel angle on a Kiwi would be 20° instead of 10–15°. But everything else should work the same.

Some authoritative reviews here

Kiwis are small, thin, cheap, flexible, and soft. Fairly easy to sharpen. Perfectly serviceable if you don't cook much. More expensive knives will get you better steel that takes an edge easier and lasts longer. Better ergonomics and handles. More sophisticated grinds bring better food release and less wedging in dense product. If I could go back I would only buy more expensive knives than I bought the first time around.

 

[Nemo]

I hope it's not derailing things to ask a somewhat related question:

If you bought a couple of Kiwi knives for the sole purpose of practicing sharpening, what are the main things to keep in mind? That is, Kiwis are much thinner, and worse metal, than most "good" knives such as we discuss in this forum. You can't thin them, for example. And some of the previous responses in this thread discuss how you would sharpen them for the purpose of keeping them sharp. But if you want to do all the things you'd do to sharpen a "real" knife--use a progression of good stones, feel and remove a burr, etc.--how would their Kiwi-ness affect the way in which you would do things?

You can thin them. Although they are thin overall, they are nowhere near a zero grind. The two possible approaches that I can think of are:

1) Use a very conservative edge angle (maybe 30 dps) to provide plenty of support to the soft steel.
2) Thin it to an almost zero grind and put a really conservative microbevel on it. Maybe using the Kippington deburring method. The steel will likely be difficult to properly deburr, so this should work well. The only issue is that the steel may be too soft to support even this.

I toyed with the idea of trying this out then decided that I have much better project knives to expend my valuable time on.

I wouldn't practice sharpening on a very soft stainless steel. Get a cheap, good quality carbon knife to learn on. My go to for this kind of knife is Shiro Kamo Kurochi AS but there are plenty of affordable options in this category.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I hope it's not derailing things to ask a somewhat related question:

If you bought a couple of Kiwi knives for the sole purpose of practicing sharpening, what are the main things to keep in mind? That is, Kiwis are much thinner, and worse metal, than most "good" knives such as we discuss in this forum. You can't thin them, for example. And some of the previous responses in this thread discuss how you would sharpen them for the purpose of keeping them sharp. But if you want to do all the things you'd do to sharpen a "real" knife--use a progression of good stones, feel and remove a burr, etc.--how would their Kiwi-ness affect the way in which you would do things?

Just buy a decent but affordable carbon steel knife to practice on.

 

[Jovidah]

I hope it's not derailing things to ask a somewhat related question:

If you bought a couple of Kiwi knives for the sole purpose of practicing sharpening, what are the main things to keep in mind? That is, Kiwis are much thinner, and worse metal, than most "good" knives such as we discuss in this forum. You can't thin them, for example. And some of the previous responses in this thread discuss how you would sharpen them for the purpose of keeping them sharp. But if you want to do all the things you'd do to sharpen a "real" knife--use a progression of good stones, feel and remove a burr, etc.--how would their Kiwi-ness affect the way in which you would do things?

Like HHC said, just get some cheap carbon instead. The Kiwi's steel doesn't exactly make it fun, and their hollow grind is a bit peculair because few knives use a similar grind.