Imperfect edge or just handmade trait?

[onklen]

Hello all

Been lurking these forums for a long time but now I finally decided on a proper Japanese kitchen knife - the Ryusen Blazen 210mm kiru/gyuto.

The knife is beautiful and cuts like a dream. It does have some irregularities along the edge though. (Pretty sure I didn't cause it as I only used it for tomatoes, letters and cucumbers and pebers.)

Are these kinds of imperfections normal in handmade knives or should it be perfectly aligned along the edge? The dent/spot is only seen from specific angles but a few similar spots are along the bottom close to the edge when light reflects exactly right.

For such an expensive knife I properly expected it to be perfect but maybe I am wrong when it comes to handmade super thin knives?

Would really appreciate some feedback from more experienced users - thanks!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Are you talking about the subtle color difference in that spot?

Is there anything actually wrong with the cutting edge?

 

[Pie]

It looks kinda like a bend, the way the light hits it. I can’t say for sure, but looks to me like an impact from the side has deflected the steel behind the edge. The edge itself looks ok, although if it’s out of line it could affect performance and future sharpening. Fatigued will play a role in how the steel behaves.

Idk, I don’t expect perfection in most cases. Even at up to 2-3x the given price range, irregularities are unsurprising. This might be something that I bring up with the seller, if it does in fact affect performance. A bent edge (that far up) will eventually cause problems. If it’s only cosmetic, or if you’re confident in sharpening/repair, then I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[Se1ryu]

It will be gone in the first Sharpening. Doesn't look like a chip since the miro bevel still there. IDK maybe it happen during the shipping or something. Is not going to affect the performance. Beautiful knife

 

[refcast]

That size of bend I've had on knives from just cutting soft stuff sometimes

 

[onklen]

Great feedback thanks all

Ok - think I keep it then / try not to worry about it.

I cannot feel it in either meat, greens nor paper.

The issue was more the feeling of buying something super expensive and then it is "not perfect".

Hope it wont become an issue later - I am mediocre at sharpening - used to stones up to 1000 and then a strop.

 

[onklen]

It looks kinda like a bend, the way the light hits it. I can’t say for sure, but looks to me like an impact from the side has deflected the steel behind the edge. The edge itself looks ok, although if it’s out of line it could affect performance and future sharpening. Fatigued will play a role in how the steel behaves.

Idk, I don’t expect perfection in most cases. Even at up to 2-3x the given price range, irregularities are unsurprising. This might be something that I bring up with the seller, if it does in fact affect performance. A bent edge (that far up) will eventually cause problems. If it’s only cosmetic, or if you’re confident in sharpening/repair, then I wouldn’t worry about it.

Yeah certainly is a tiny bend but it is kinda hard to spot it. Light has to be at a very exact angle. Seems to only be cosmetic

 

[Pie]

Yeah certainly is a tiny bend but it is kinda hard to spot it. Light has to be at a very exact angle. Seems to only be cosmetic

Best case scenario . Enjoy!

 

[refcast]

Anyhow much better than the opposite cse scenario common in mirror polished honyaki, very pretty and no edge micro bends, but so thick it can't cut much well at all

 

[onklen]

Are you talking about the subtle color difference in that spot?

Is there anything actually wrong with the cutting edge?

Well it's not a color difference. It's the light reflecting differently there due to the tiny bend

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Well it's not a color difference. It's the light reflecting differently there due to the tiny bend

Yep. I was on my phone and it was hard for me to see. But after reading @Pie's post and being on my computer I see it.

Also, welcome to KKF.

 

[McMan]

I've seen this before (from somebody that wasn't me using one of my knives!)... It comes from putting torsion stress on the edge while it's still in the board and simultaneously has downward force--as in having the knife at 11 o'clock in the board and then moving it to 12 o'clock while still in the board. Were you 'walking' the knife with a rock chop?
Otherwise, if it came that way new, that's something I'd be unhappy about.
Regardless, it sharpened out fine in a session or two.

 

[Nemo]

I've seen this before (from somebody that wasn't me using one of my knives!)... It comes from putting torsion stress on the edge while it's still in the board and simultaneously has downward force--as in having the knife at 11 o'clock in the board and then moving it to 12 o'clock while still in the board. Were you 'walking' the knife with a rock chop?
Otherwise, if it came that way new, that's something I'd be unhappy about.
Regardless, it sharpened out fine in a session or two.

Or possibly scraping food along the chopping board with the edge dragging along the board?

 

[onklen]

I've seen this before (from somebody that wasn't me using one of my knives!)... It comes from putting torsion stress on the edge while it's still in the board and simultaneously has downward force--as in having the knife at 11 o'clock in the board and then moving it to 12 o'clock while still in the board. Were you 'walking' the knife with a rock chop?
Otherwise, if it came that way new, that's something I'd be unhappy about.
Regardless, it sharpened out fine in a session or two.

No not really done any rocking motions with it...

 

[Delat]

No not really done any rocking motions with it...

It’s easy to happen during regular use. I just noticed a couple tiny little deflections on one of my knives, surely caused by me. I’ve been consciously trying to correct bad cutting habits for the past year. Bad habits tend to become highlighted once you start using thin, light knives.

 

[kpham12]

Even with really good technique, a little deflection like this can happen if you accidentally go through a seed or a stem or something similar. It might not come completely out after one sharpening, but it’ll become less and less pronounced over time.

 

[Grayswandir]

As long as it cuts well, I wouldn't give it another thought. You can barely see it anyway. I might be wrong, but in some cultures, an error or a defect is made on purpose, not sure why though, maybe to stay humble?

 

[btbyrd]

I really wish people would stop trying to cover up defects by appeal to mysticism or wabi sabi or whatever.

I don't have any experience with this knife, but some very thin edges will deform during even light use on soft product cut on a nice board, especially if there's no microbevel. The sort of imperfections on this edge are barely imperfections, and were probably caused by you using the knife. Everything you showed will sharpen out in the first sharpening and you're unlikely to have similar deformations happen

 

[Grayswandir]

I really wish people would stop trying to cover up defects by appeal to mysticism or wabi sabi or whatever.

I don't have any experience with this knife, but some very thin edges will deform during even light use on soft product cut on a nice board, especially if there's no microbevel. The sort of imperfections on this edge are barely imperfections, and were probably caused by you using the knife. Everything you showed will sharpen out in the first sharpening and you're unlikely to have similar deformations happen

I wasn't saying that was what was going on, but it is something that some cultures and artisans do, even though it's not my cup of tea personally. I'm surprised you've come across it before, as it seems like it's gotten you a bit irritated.

 

[btbyrd]

Wabi sabi is sometimes used to excuse poor and inconsistent workmanship in the J-Knife world. I find that irritating (but you're \totally fine -- I have no beef with you at all).

But I don't think that someone would go through all the care and concern to make that beautifully finished knife and then decided to throw some barely perceptible microbends into the edge just to give it a touch of imperfection.

 

[Grayswandir]

Hehe, I thought you were being funny when you typed "wabi-sabi"!

Me personally, a hammer mark in that area would irritate me to no end. A small imperfection to me would be less noticeable, more akin to what I would think of in that "wabi-sabi" philosophy, not something that really stands out like that.

I read your post below it, and I have to agree. If people are foolish enough to pay so much for a knife that doesn't really scream hand-made, master craftsman, then the guys who make them will just keep putting out shoddy work. That knife should have been discounted, as that hammer blow is a real eye sore, and takes away from what I would consider a pleasing shape overall.

A sucker is born every minute.

 

[Grayswandir]

Wabi sabi is sometimes used to excuse poor and inconsistent workmanship in the J-Knife world. I find that irritating (but you're \totally fine -- I have no beef with you at all).

But I don't think that someone would go through all the care and concern to make that beautifully finished knife and then decided to throw some barely perceptible microbends into the edge just to give it a touch of imperfection.

I missed the swine comment, hahaha!

 

[Benuser]

Some knives come out of the box with an edge that is hardly usable: far to thin, only made to allow the end-customer to put his own edge on it with only a few strokes on a fine stone. Don't expect a factory edge of 8 degrees per side to hold when used with board contact.

 

[Jovidah]

Some knives come out of the box with an edge that is hardly usable: far to thin, only made to allow the end-customer to put his own edge on it with only a few strokes on a fine stone. Don't expect a factory edge of 8 degrees per side to hold when used with board contact.

*cough* Takamura *cough*

 

[onklen]

Some knives come out of the box with an edge that is hardly usable: far to thin, only made to allow the end-customer to put his own edge on it with only a few strokes on a fine stone. Don't expect a factory edge of 8 degrees per side to hold when used with board contact.

Oh interesting. Yeah it seems super delicate right now.

 

[Benuser]

Oh interesting. Yeah it seems super delicate right now.

Being very thin isn't such a problem when the very edge is stable enough. You may check the sharpening angle by moving the flat blade on cardboard or leather edge leading while raising the spine until it bites. It isn't very exact but gives an idea. The real sharpening angle is slightly lower. For knives that have board contact an inclusive angle — the sum of the sharpening angles at both sides — of 25° or higher is reasonable, depending on the steel, the user, the board that's being used.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

Didn’t know Ryusen knives are so thin behind the edge. No wonder people say they have good grind. This won’t be gone in first sharpening if you don’t use low grit stone. I personally never use low grit stone on knives that are this thin behind the edge unless I want to fix something. I think you dont have to intentionally remove much of steel to fix it unless you can feel it in cutting.

 

[Benuser]

I usually remove a factory edge, and then certainly start with a medium-coarse stone. Not to remove a lot of steel, just to make sure it is gone.
By the way, with a lot of steel types edge stability benefits from starting the progression with a relatively coarse stone. A few strokes. Largely compensated by the thinning behind the edge that is standard with any sharpening.