Is Quality Control really hit or miss this much?

[JASinIL2006]

Getting back to the OP's question, one of the things I found as I have bought several knives is that there are multiple ways to experience (and value) these knives. One esthetic that some of us value is the appearance, including fit and finish, beautiful damascus patterns, custom handles, etc. Another esthetic is the appreciation of the craftsmanship that went into the knife, especially with knives that are largely handcrafted or feature difficult-to-work-with steels. Another esthetic is the knife's cutting performance and the pleasure the user gets from wielding the knife. There doubtless are other ways to appreciate these knives, too, and none of these esthetics are necessarily exclusive.

For me, a big part of what I have come to enjoy in knives is the fun of using them and in some cases, being blown away at how well they cut or hold an edge. I've come to devalue the appearance, at least compared to when I first became interested in these knives. For you, OP, you may find that fit and finish is more important to your enjoyment and use of a knife, and that's OK. To my way of thinking, it's quite possible to have a knife with mediocre fit and finish if it ticks the other boxes that are important, even if the knife costs $300 or $500.

 

[mpier]

Can’t we get both though, I mean my Yoshikane’s have a great f&f and cut like a dream for $300 + and under. Is it that unreasonable to except at least that much.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Honestly the majority of Japanese knives are incredibly overpriced for what you’re getting

Boooooh Liaaarrrrr

 

[NBrewster]

Honestly this is why I prefer to buy in person vs online

Even great purveyors have varying quality and the buying experience reflects it. Just stopped into carbon knife co a week back and they brought out 5 of the same yoshikane knives to inspect and chose from.

Each was different. All were great IMO but one struck me as particularly good. Wouldn't have ended up with that particular knife had i not been there in person.

 

[Justinv]

Honestly the majority of Japanese knives are incredibly overpriced for what you’re getting

Agreed. Why are they charging more than a hammer or grocery store knife? They are using world war one era steel and some wood. No different than a $15 hammer. The difference is inefficient manufacturing. You are paying $300 for someone to underpay labor to inefficiently make a $20 product. I get paying more for PM steel still under patent protection and customized products made to order. But that isn’t what is being sold.

 

[BillHanna]

Hawt. Taek. Alert.

 

[blokey]

Agreed. Why are they charging more than a hammer or grocery store knife? They are using world war one era steel and some wood. No different than a $15 hammer. The difference is inefficient manufacturing. You are paying $300 for someone to underpay labor to inefficiently make a $20 product. I get paying more for PM steel still under patent protection and customized products made to order. But that isn’t what is being sold.

I mean ceramic are just superheated mud but they can fetch 5 figures easily.

 

[timebard]

Agreed. Why are they charging more than a hammer or grocery store knife? They are using world war one era steel and some wood. No different than a $15 hammer. The difference is inefficient manufacturing. You are paying $300 for someone to underpay labor to inefficiently make a $20 product. I get paying more for PM steel still under patent protection and customized products made to order. But that isn’t what is being sold.

If you want to talk about inefficient manufacturing western smiths take the cake... You can easily pay $600 for someone to underpay labor (themselves) to make a knife from low alloy steel laminated in wrought iron from their great grandpa's horse's favorite horseshoe or some BS...

But seriously, I don't get this take at all. What knives would you send someone to at the sub-$300 price point that are so much better a deal?

 

[Justinv]

But seriously, I don't get this take at all. What knives would you send someone to at the sub-$300 price point that are so much better a deal?

That is what I don’t understand. It seems like it should be possible for someone to make something great using modern manufacturing and modern steel for $200. However at that price point you have wusthof that is generally making the same stuff they made 30 years ago.

 

[Chopper88]

I think that has also to do with customer expectations.

The majority of people don't have the tools and/or knowhow on how to sharpen these harder/tougher steels and don't consider that edges can be brittle etc.
If I would gift one of my knives to just about anyone in my family, they would most likely return it because it's considered a chippy piece of crap that can't be sharpened with a run through sharpener nor survive the dishwasher.
I'm pretty sure Wüsthof etc. can make 'better' knives, but the average customer doesn't know how to handle them.
Besides that, what they are doing at the moment just works for them, they still own a large market share and they sell like hot cakes.

 

[Duukt]

That is what I don’t understand. It seems like it should be possible for someone to make something great using modern manufacturing and modern steel for $200. However at that price point you have wusthof that is generally making the same stuff they made 30 years ago.

I believe Takamura knives are partially made using modern machinery and they are top tier knives for the price and performance. The Miyabi's, Shun's and MAC's of the knife world are probably mostly using modern manufacturing techniques too seeing as they never seem to be out of stock and sold at every big box store.

 

[Benuser]

That is what I don’t understand. It seems like it should be possible for someone to make something great using modern manufacturing and modern steel for $200. However at that price point you have wusthof that is generally making the same stuff they made 30 years ago.

So called modern steel types often come with high abrasion resistance, which makes production much harder, and critical Heat Treatment that requires out-sourcing. For a kitchen knife easy sharpening and edge stability are important criteria. No need for very advanced steel types.
About Wüsthof: it has drastically changed its production method. It's now almost entirely robotised, coming OOTB with V-edges this type of steel hardly takes. Instead of their traditional man-made convex edges who were certainly to be preferred with their Krupp 4116.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

That is what I don’t understand. It seems like it should be possible for someone to make something great using modern manufacturing and modern steel for $200. However at that price point you have wusthof that is generally making the same stuff they made 30 years ago.

Look to the stamped products like the Ginga lines, Akifusa, Tosaichi, etc.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Agreed. Why are they charging more than a hammer or grocery store knife? They are using world war one era steel and some wood. No different than a $15 hammer. The difference is inefficient manufacturing. You are paying $300 for someone to underpay labor to inefficiently make a $20 product. I get paying more for PM steel still under patent protection and customized products made to order. But that isn’t what is being sold.

Okay, someone has to do it so...

Chelsea Miller.

 

[Justinv]

Good points above. I think the volume/demand isn’t there to justify the cost of a manufacturing line for the niche products discussed around here. So you are left with say middle volume manufacturing in small factories that have to use a lot of hand labor because they lack volume for automated manufacturing. To get cost down to the $200-$300 retail range they have to limit refinement.

 

[ModRQC]

Lol. I'm sorry to say this thread is irrelevant.

First the OP's pictures are not even good enough to show anything much. And from there two pages of F&F complaining that has no ground or comparatives.

Second... if you're here, whatever of a hobbyist or user you are, you're here for seeking elevated craftmanship. Such elevated craftsmanship is nowhere near as consistently found than in Japan. There's just no country giving as much expertise as much varied yet consistently pretty good than Japan. And that's why you have such a populated and knowledgeable forum about kitchen knives as KKF where 98% of knife discussion involves Japanese makers or custom makers of any origin with a clear "Japanese style" inclination.

So what's our comparatives? Let's suggest "factory knives" since it's at odds with what we thrive for here unless proven otherwise.

IME 99% of factory knives are either worse, or at best on par, with most of the artisanal makers in Japan. Of course you could raise quite a few good exception to that rule, but overall still, and at ANY given price point above 200$ CAD, I can tell you of a few makers making MUCH better than their factory made competitors even out of Japan. And yet if a cheaper still factory knife you'd like to get, Japan is by far most probably your best bet. Until reaching Victorinox Rosewood/Fibrox territory kind of cheap, where well nothing is quite equal to a Victorinox knife.

So... what's the point here? Some makers for some given price point rounds his choil and spine better than another? Because that's most of what I read here. Are you such comfy sissies that you can't even distinguish over the top F&F from good F&F from sufficient F&F from real poor F&F in that price range you're on about? Is your hand gonna fall into pieces because a Kaji-Bei 250$ CAD knife is "not as rounded" as a 400$ CAD Yoshikane? Can't the 150$ CAD distance incline you to any kind of rationale where "smooth enough" is already a feat compared to said 99% factory knives, and quite enough done that you can comfortably cut with it for hours?

Real poor F&F is a consistent thing below 200$ CAD, and especially from factories, and indeed at that price range you're mostly buying factory-made. And just about ANY cheap Japanese artisan I can think of that I tried is more satisfying than most factory knives.

"300$ USD should net you a good F&F" and yet still complaining? ... LMFAO. 300$ USD is far above a price point where there's just no comparatives to what kind of knives you're getting from any artisan maker out of Japan. 300$ USD - which to me is 400$ CAD and almost double the threshold of poorly made knives in my book - is rather a very fishy price point where you're basically overpaying what can be got cheaper. Of course, at large, F&F starts to round up big way towards some higher grounds when you hit 400-500$ CAD, but the knife is rarely any better - either in cutting, geometry, steel HT, or even quite possibly, F&F. It's the pricepoint where you start paying for fame and cosmetics, not intrinsic knife qualities.

 

[tostadas]

So my new gyuto arrived - Bought 240 mm Yoshimi Kato stainless clad nashiji finish AS gyuto.

Blade was set a little bit under a different angle. Choil was rounded really differently from both sides. I had to sand one side thats was more rough.

Spine was inequally sanded/polished. More rough at the end near the tip.

octagonal handle sides and corresponding segments at the top of it do not match. Hard to explain hopefully the picture will tell the full story.

wooden part of the handle isnt lacquered at the bottom and it is an extremely thin layer on other parts. Feels like after few uses it is more rough already. - should I apply mineral oil to it?

sharpening angles on thebevel were different. Not sure if this is intentional as I have heard people increasing the angle when approaching the handle so the food supposedly falls off more reliably.

I managed to get it at a good price but am I wrong here or is this normal? Feels like a $300+ knife should be better?

I'd consider that to be pretty good F&F compared to Japanese knives I've had ranging from $100-600. What's considered "good F&F" varies from person to person. To me, that means rounding of any sharp edges, relatively straight handle install, straight blade, and consistent grind. But on many of my knives, I often do extra F&F improvements to make them extra comfortable.

If there's something in particular that you care about, for example a lip between ferrule and handle, it's good to communicate that to the vendor to check for you. Though for handles, you have to keep in mind that expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials (ie. wood and horn) vary depending on location because of humidity, temperature, etc. So while a handle might be completely flush in my home, if you were to bring the same handle to a tropical climate, it may develop that lip that you find unsatisfactory.

For the ~$200 price point, I've found Wakui to have excellent F&F across all their models. And though several people here say that Yoshikane has good F&F, I disagree. I find that while their grinds are consistent, the comfort is not there in the spine/choil.

 

[M1k3]

Does it feel good to use? If yes, move on. Use it. Be happy.

Now if it doesn't feel nice to use, (I'm looking at you Takamura Chromax bolster, choil and spine where you pinch grip) fix it or return/sell

 

[sumis]

the difference between rustic and shabby is sometimes rhetorical.

on another note … we've had 20 years of relic'ed (factory worn) guitars (which can be a good thing in some cases).

i predict we will soon pay extra for blades already scratched up by your legendary maker of choice, including exquisitely chipped handles.

.

 

[Brian Weekley]

the difference between rustic and shabby is sometimes rhetorical.

on another note … we've had 20 years of relic'ed (factory worn) guitars (which can be a good thing in some cases).

i predict we will soon pay extra for blades already scratched up by your legendary maker of choice, including exquisitely chipped handles.

.

Interesting that you should mention that. I’ve always had a preference for used (not abused) knives. I like patina and signs of use. I find “new” knives a bit sterile. I’m always a bit reluctant to put the first use on them, whereas I like taking a “used” knife and putting it to work … especially if I have some kind of connection or friendship with a previous owner. BST is a great playground for me.

 

[sumis]

Interesting that you should mention that. I’ve always had a preference for used (not abused) knives. I like patina and signs of use. I find “new” knives a bit sterile. I’m always a bit reluctant to put the first use on them, whereas I like taking a “used” knife and putting it to work … especially if I have some kind of connection or friendship with a previous owner. BST is a great playground for me.

yes, i totally get that.

while paying extra for a factory worn guitar might seem (and to a certain extent is) stupid. it does involve more labor and one HUGE benefit is that you don't feel the need to baby it.

manufacturers of rust erasers: be afraid!

.

 

[Benuser]

Interesting that you should mention that. I’ve always had a preference for used (not abused) knives. I like patina and signs of use. I find “new” knives a bit sterile. I’m always a bit reluctant to put the first use on them, whereas I like taking a “used” knife and putting it to work … especially if I have some kind of connection or friendship with a previous owner. BST is a great playground for me.

One of the numerous reasons to give a brand-new knife a good sharpening, including some thinning, before its first use, and adapting it little by little until I have it as I want it.

 

[Pie]

Price point is one thing, maker is another, and then making another entirely. And at some point, different regions have different "visions" of F&F. Then factoring in the ones like Sakai and Echizen where work is a collab. It's very difficult to "classify" F&F into price categories or pointing out "an absence thereof" vs. the whole making process.

A Wakui W#2 is under the 300$ CAD mark, flirting with a lower price tier like Moritaka, or pretty close to the same price tier as S. Tanaka, and really you couldn't get three knives more different. And then with Moritaka level of F&F would have to be accounting with the regional aspect and the fact they laminate in house, where I suspect the other two would use prelams.

I don't know if my reviews are so complicated about it. I think I go with fairly simple statements of what is there and what it means to me and try to replace it into the context of the knife.

Take a Takamura blade, and sure you shouldn't expect a rounded spine or so smooth choil. But saying Takamura has low level of F&F in my sense would be wrong, especially for price, but even not counting it in. There's precision in the blades and a high level of finish otherwise. And neither spine or choil are exactly rough - they're just flat and "sharp" mostly because the blade is so thin to start with. No irregularities, no rough patch of ground steel clinging into the choil, no bulge of steel left unground there neither. All these typical venues of cheaper blades where I would claim poor F&F.

Have a Kaji-Bei here. That guy basically laminates his blades in his garage. What you get is rough, but yet again, more in a cosmetic sense. He still grinds the spine and choil nicely enough to not leave them rough. I don't call this "unfinished". There's a basic F&F he still does. For the ridiculous price paid, seldom do more, and many do less. What is pretty outstanding is in that lot, little would forge weld the blade themselves.

I've said as much often in my reviews: while like anybody I find a rounded spine real nice to meet the eye and grip, I'm not especially seeking it. It's easy to chamfer and smooth a spine and choil enough, and I find square spines more useful with a couple of tricks I like to do.

The thing I really hate the most is of little consequence in use, but I just find it deeply irritating: blade not straight into the handle. Big gush of epoxy for extra sickly points. For the rest, I'll get a simple vertical migaki and be joyous. Often did.

Side note, I love the huge glob of epoxy at the handle. It means I can full scrub the whole thing with no fear of water getting into the handle.

On topic - everyone’s opinions on the situation are subjective, and as such I feel like we should be accepting of what whoever thinks of whatevers’ fit and finish. Trying to get everyone to get on the same page in terms of what is and isn’t acceptable or dissappointing is a losing battle.

 

[Greenbriel]

Honestly the majority of Japanese knives are incredibly overpriced for what you’re getting

No idea why this is getting contentious but ... (not directed to you @EricEricEric!)

For the most part, I respectfully disagree - I earn a certain amount per hour, and I'm sure it's more than most of these amazing craftsmen who in many cases have been working at this for decades. And of course they generally make less than we pay retail.

It also depends on the knife - you can buy an amazing Kohetsu (goes by several names) nakiri for $100 that is incredible value, a TF Denka which I think is bordering on too expensive for what it is, or go into the realm of real unicorns where you are paying for a piece of functional art, so the equation differs.

My two cents!

And to stay on topic, I agree with the general consensus that the OP has nothing to worry about there.

Cheers all!

 

[ReiHamono]

It’s really terrible, I’ve received knives that are bent, which has nothing to do with shipping, and everything to do with quality control, even received knives with absolutely atrocious grinds that were not fixable

What’s even worse is the retailer doesn’t want to give a refund when they sell junk like this

However, none of my customs have ever ended up like this, they were all virtually perfect

It would appear that the majority of “mass” produced Japanese knives have terrible quality control, especially when it comes to wide bevel knives

And this is irrespective of how much you pay for the knife as well, i.e. $2,500+, just because you pay a lot of money does not mean that you’re guaranteed better quality

As a result it’s very important to take a very good look and examine which makers are going to adhere to your standards per the amount of money you want to spend.

You may have to factor in sending it to a secondary sharpener in order to fix low/high spots and unintended asymmetries etc

A lot of these knives when, bought direct, are rather inexpensive, giving more than enough money left over to send it to a secondary sharpener to give you the exact shape and finish that you want, you can even have enough money left over for a new handle as well

In my opinion the vendors, because they are doubling the price or more, really should perform their own quality control on the knives they are selling before they sell them into the market.

Also, a lot of the sharpeners are absolutely terrible, and they need to make a move to using machines that can cut faster and more precisely as some custom knife makers are already doing now instead of using a wheel inappropriately.

I would recommend that they invest in a CNC machine instead, that would 100% solve everything

 

[bahamaroot]

It’s really terrible, I’ve received knives that are bent, which has nothing to do with shipping, and everything to do with quality control, even received knives with absolutely atrocious grinds that were not fixable

What’s even worse is the retailer doesn’t want to give a refund when they sell junk like this

However, none of my customs have ever ended up like this, they were all virtually perfect

It would appear that the majority of “mass” produced Japanese knives have terrible quality control, especially when it comes to wide bevel knives

And this is irrespective of how much you pay for the knife as well, i.e. $2,500+, just because you pay a lot of money does not mean that you’re guaranteed better quality

As a result it’s very important to take a very good look and examine which makers are going to adhere to your standards per the amount of money you want to spend.

You may have to factor in sending it to a secondary sharpener in order to fix low/high spots and unintended asymmetries etc

A lot of these knives when bought direct are rather inexpensive, giving more than enough money left over to send it to a secondary sharpener to give you the exact shape and finish that you want, you can even have enough money left over for a new handle as well

In my opinion the vendors, because they are doubling the price or more, really should perform their ow quality control on the knives they are selling before they sell them into the market.

Also, a lot of the sharpeners are absolutely terrible, and they need to make a move to using machines that can cut faster and more precisely as some custom knife makers are already doing now instead of using a wheel inappropriately.

I would recommend that they invest in a CNC machine instead, that would 100% solve everything

I've bought several dozen knives from over a dozen different Japanese makers and have never experienced anything close to what you are describing.

 

[Delat]

I've bought several dozen knives from over a dozen different Japanese makers and have never experienced anything close to what you are describing.

Agree, all my j-knives are in the $150 - $350 range and all are just fine in terms of overall quality. I’ve never thinned any of my knives, so could be some have flawed grinds I just haven’t noticed yet.

 

[FishmanDE]

$300 is the new $150

 

[timebard]

It’s really terrible, I’ve received knives that are bent, which has nothing to do with shipping, and everything to do with quality control, even received knives with absolutely atrocious grinds that were not fixable

What’s even worse is the retailer doesn’t want to give a refund when they sell junk like this

However, none of my customs have ever ended up like this, they were all virtually perfect

It would appear that the majority of “mass” produced Japanese knives have terrible quality control, especially when it comes to wide bevel knives

And this is irrespective of how much you pay for the knife as well, i.e. $2,500+, just because you pay a lot of money does not mean that you’re guaranteed better quality

As a result it’s very important to take a very good look and examine which makers are going to adhere to your standards per the amount of money you want to spend.

You may have to factor in sending it to a secondary sharpener in order to fix low/high spots and unintended asymmetries etc

A lot of these knives when bought direct are rather inexpensive, giving more than enough money left over to send it to a secondary sharpener to give you the exact shape and finish that you want, you can even have enough money left over for a new handle as well

In my opinion the vendors, because they are doubling the price or more, really should perform their ow quality control on the knives they are selling before they sell them into the market.

Also, a lot of the sharpeners are absolutely terrible, and they need to make a move to using machines that can cut faster and more precisely as some custom knife makers are already doing now instead of using a wheel inappropriately.

I would recommend that they invest in a CNC machine instead, that would 100% solve everything

This is pretty different from my experience, but whatever - different strokes and standards of acceptable quality.

What I'm interested in is your suggestion that sharpeners use CNC machines to automate and dial in their grinds. I've often wondered why no one has yet succeeded (tried?) mass producing knives with a really excellent convex grind using some kind of CNC type machinery. Kipp, Myojin, Toyama etc al all are wizards... but ultimately geometry is just that, and presumably an expensive and well calibrated machine could replicate those grinds at a larger scale. I assume there's just not enough of a market to justify the capital investment..?

 

[tostadas]

This is pretty different from my experience, but whatever - different strokes and standards of acceptable quality.

What I'm interested in is your suggestion that sharpeners use CNC machines to automate and dial in their grinds. I've often wondered why no one has yet succeeded (tried?) mass producing knives with a really excellent convex grind using some kind of CNC type machinery. Kipp, Myojin, Toyama etc al all are wizards... but ultimately geometry is just that, and presumably an expensive and well calibrated machine could replicate those grinds at a larger scale. I assume there's just not enough of a market to justify the capital investment..?

An issue with cnc could be the tolerances that you can achieve. A quick Google search suggests that 0.005inch (0.127mm) is the amount of tolerance that you can get from cnc. A more expensive machine could probably do better, but more $$. If you're grinding an edge on a knife, a variance of 0.127mm is significant. At the very least, you would still need to finish the edge by hand