Kato a quarter of the price in Japan?

[blokey]

Come across this particular thread in Reddit, he seems like he live in Japan and know some stuff, but this is internet so who knows? Anyone else have experience with the stuff?

 

[Corradobrit1]

Come across this particular thread in Reddit, he seems like he live in Japan and know some stuff, but this is internet so who knows? Anyone else have experience with the stuff?

I have it on good authority from a couple of people who know, that Morihei stickers his Kato Ku 240's for 1,500,000yen. The retailer 'Kikuichi?' using the cheap red boxes and D shaped Ho handles seem to have the lowest priced Migaki Katos....but a quarter the price they regularly command here ie $1200... I think that highly unlikely. Kiridashi's are a little more niche so hardly comparable.

But I do agree with the posters assertion that locally, Kato doesn't garner the same reputation as he does outside the country. Marketing and the internet have certainly raised his stock in the West.

 

[Jovidah]

Specify which Kato... Yoshimi Kato might indeed be a quarter of the price of Yoshiaki Fujiwara.

 

[blokey]

Specify which Kato... Yoshimi Kato might indeed be a quarter of the price of Yoshiaki Fujiwara.

 

[enrico]

That guy is so clutch when it comes to reading Kanji on a blade. Thats all I have to add to this conversation.

 

[tgfencer]

Come across this particular thread in Reddit, he seems like he live in Japan and know some stuff, but this is internet so who knows? Anyone else have experience with the stuff?

When I was in Japan in 2017, I saw various sizes of Yoshiaki Fujiwara blades (double-bevel) $350-500 for migaki, cheaper for KU. Can't remember single bevel or damascus prices, but they were obviously a bit higher, but still sub-1k. Tanaka western ironwoods were pretty much all $800-1k+ regardless of size in the few shops I saw them at. An Ashi honyaki santoku I found somewhere in the $700-800 range I think. Shigefusa kasumi, various double and single bevels, mostly kasumi $300-700, kitaeji $600-900. Jnats prices were all over the board.

Of course, you still had to find the shops that had these things in stock and in some cases work to convince the owner to sell to you. Obviously that was over 5 years ago so I don't know how much things have changed, but I wouldn't be surprised if things were still 30-50% cheaper domestically especially with the retailers who don't cater their goods to international markets.

It bears remembering though that prices at online stores weren't bad overly long ago either, probably roughly mirroring domestic prices in Japan. Ancedotally, my 240 Kato WH from JNS was $500 in 2017. My Toyama 270 gyuto ironclad was $280 in 2017. My Shig 270 kasumi gyuto was $600 from Aframes in 2016ish. Even on KKF, Kato and Shigefusa knives were occasionally available for $400-600 in that 2014-2018 time period, and not just the standard KU santokus either. There were a bunch of Tanaka ironwoods in the same time period for sub-$600 on one rather odd US webstore for what felt like ages before they finally sold and the place shut down.

Alas, times change, and prices on everything only ever go one way. There is a reason many Western one-man knifemakers are considered comparatively good deals these days, even though you'd never say they're cheap.

If you're really curious, Zweber has good data for Shigs and Katos that he compiled during the heyday of the price craze a couple years ago based mostly upon KKF sales.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/media/pricepermmdev-jul2020-png.31562/

 

[bearhippo]

When I was in Japan in 2017, I saw various sizes of Yoshiaki Fujiwara blades (double-bevel) $350-500 for migaki, cheaper for KU. Can't remember single bevel or damascus prices, but they were obviously a bit higher, but still sub-1k. Tanaka western ironwoods were pretty much all $800-1k+ regardless of size in the few shops I saw them at. An Ashi honyaki santoku I found somewhere in the $700-800 range I think. Shigefusa kasumi, various double and single bevels, mostly kasumi $300-700, kitaeji $600-900. Jnats prices were all over the board.

Of course, you still had to find the shops that had these things in stock and in some cases work to convince the owner to sell to you. Obviously that was over 5 years ago so I don't know how much things have changed, but I wouldn't be surprised if things were still 30-50% cheaper domestically especially with the retailers who don't cater their goods to international markets.

It bears remembering though that prices at online stores weren't bad overly long ago either, probably roughly mirroring domestic prices in Japan. Ancedotally, my 240 Kato WH from JNS was $500 in 2017. My Toyama 270 gyuto ironclad was $280 in 2017. My Shig 270 kasumi gyuto was $600 from Aframes in 2016ish. Even on KKF, Kato and Shigefusa knives were occasionally available for $400-600 in that 2014-2018 time period, and not just the standard KU santokus either. There were a bunch of Tanaka ironwoods in the same time period for sub-$600 on one rather odd US webstore for what felt like ages before they finally sold and the place shut down.

Alas, times change, and prices on everything only ever go one way. There is a reason many Western one-man knifemakers are considered comparatively good deals these days, even though you'd never say they're cheap.

If you're really curious, Zweber has good data for Shigs and Katos that he compiled during the heyday of the price craze a couple years ago based mostly upon KKF sales.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/media/pricepermmdev-jul2020-png.31562/

I'd like to hope that prices are higher now because it'll be disastrous (for my wallet that is) the next time I go to Japan if things haven't changed .

 

[Lurkernomore]

Not sure about the quarter bit but Kato kiridashi in Kansai range from 100000 to 150000 and shigefusa kurouchi are 22000. I last saw some like a month ago.

Factoring in the exchange rate and taking some of the more ridiculous offers on BST as the market price you get pretty close to a quarter.

 

[gc0220]

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean in reality these are just low volume mass produced knives with a lot of, what I'd consider undue, hype. I say this as a person that owns several of them, as they were the first "artisan" knives I like most people purchased. Why is that? Because of the marketing done on their behalf by knife dealers in North America, most of whom are shameless in their willingness to purvey myths and misinformation to sell the stuff. Knife-land is full of mythology and misinformation and in my experience the people who re-sell these knives are some of the worst purveyors of it. Like what you like, get what you like, but when I think objectively about a knife as an object or as a tool, and what am I actually getting, these knives in particular are some of the poorest value I've seen. You could say they have some less quantifiable value because of the charm, but that's a product of marketing. It might be through proxy, but these guys clearly have excellent marketing skills.

Just objectively speaking as tools, and also speaking based on how they're made, which lets be real, these are made from stamping out pre-laminated sheets, then stock removed on a belt grinder, these knives are comically overpriced for what they sell for in North America. I paid over $200 for a 150 mm Kato petty, it's AS and damascus clad. Cool. It's one the a handful of the same pre-laminated damascus billets all these guys in their knife village buy and use. Idk, I just have a bad taste in my mouth about it because of the way the was sold to me, and I see other people too who leave reviews talking about their "amazing hand forged knives." A full priced Shun is less over priced and also better performing, and frankly as an object just a better knife. Yeah, I said it. Have you seen the handles some of these masakages ship with? Like the Yuki model. They're bad, as in cheap junk. I just checked KnifeWear, a 210 Yuki Gyoto sells for around $225 USD.

 

[blokey]

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean in reality these are just low volume mass produced knives with a lot of, what I'd consider undue, hype. I say this as a person that owns several of them, as they were the first "artisan" knives I like most people purchased. Why is that? Because of the marketing done on their behalf by knife dealers in North America, most of whom are shameless in their willingness to purvey myths and misinformation to sell the stuff. Knife-land is full of mythology and misinformation and in my experience the people who re-sell these knives are some of the worst purveyors of it. Like what you like, get what you like, but when I think objectively about a knife as an object or as a tool, and what am I actually getting, these knives in particular are some of the poorest value I've seen. You could say they have some less quantifiable value because of the charm, but that's a product of marketing. It might be through proxy, but these guys clearly have excellent marketing skills.

Just objectively speaking as tools, and also speaking based on how they're made, which lets be real, these are made from stamping out pre-laminated sheets, then stock removed on a belt grinder, these knives are comically overpriced for what they sell for in North America. I paid over $200 for a 150 mm Kato petty, it's AS and damascus clad. Cool. It's one the a handful of the same pre-laminated damascus billets all these guys in their knife village buy and use. Idk, I just have a bad taste in my mouth about it because of the way the was sold to me, and I see other people too who leave reviews talking about their "amazing hand forged knives." A full priced Shun is less over priced and also better performing, and frankly as an object just a better knife. Yeah, I said it. Have you seen the handles some of these masakages ship with? Like the Yuki model. They're bad, as in cheap junk. I just checked KnifeWear, a 210 Yuki Gyoto sells for around $225 USD.

We are not talking about Y. Kato or TKV knives here…

 

[gc0220]

We are not talking about Y. Kato or TKV knives here…

Sounds like the story of my life. Disregard my rant and carry on.

 

[Infrared]

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean in reality these are just low volume mass produced knives with a lot of, what I'd consider undue, hype. I say this as a person that owns several of them, as they were the first "artisan" knives I like most people purchased. Why is that? Because of the marketing done on their behalf by knife dealers in North America, most of whom are shameless in their willingness to purvey myths and misinformation to sell the stuff. Knife-land is full of mythology and misinformation and in my experience the people who re-sell these knives are some of the worst purveyors of it. Like what you like, get what you like, but when I think objectively about a knife as an object or as a tool, and what am I actually getting, these knives in particular are some of the poorest value I've seen. You could say they have some less quantifiable value because of the charm, but that's a product of marketing. It might be through proxy, but these guys clearly have excellent marketing skills.

Just objectively speaking as tools, and also speaking based on how they're made, which lets be real, these are made from stamping out pre-laminated sheets, then stock removed on a belt grinder, these knives are comically overpriced for what they sell for in North America. I paid over $200 for a 150 mm Kato petty, it's AS and damascus clad. Cool. It's one the a handful of the same pre-laminated damascus billets all these guys in their knife village buy and use. Idk, I just have a bad taste in my mouth about it because of the way the was sold to me, and I see other people too who leave reviews talking about their "amazing hand forged knives." A full priced Shun is less over priced and also better performing, and frankly as an object just a better knife. Yeah, I said it. Have you seen the handles some of these masakages ship with? Like the Yuki model. They're bad, as in cheap junk. I just checked KnifeWear, a 210 Yuki Gyoto sells for around $225 USD.

As said above, two different makers, but Yoshimi Kato (and many other from Takefu) knives are indeed hammer forged and made by hand. Most are forged with a spring hammer, ground with a large sharpening wheel, and heat treated by a human (depends on the steel).

In my experience, they are pretty good knives. You can find better, you can find worse, but overall they are a good deal for the performance and fit and finish that you get.

If you're interested in more "artisanal" knives, I would suggest looking at a Mikami knife. Blue #1 laminated by hand, forged by a blacksmith who is now dead, and sharpened by his son who is a certified swordsmith.

Hinokuni is also another good choice. A very young blacksmith that forge welds White #1.

Also, a knife made from stock removal is still handmade.

 

[Corradobrit1]

I wouldn't be surprised. I mean in reality these are just low volume mass produced knives with a lot of, what I'd consider undue, hype. I say this as a person that owns several of them, as they were the first "artisan" knives I like most people purchased. Why is that? Because of the marketing done on their behalf by knife dealers in North America, most of whom are shameless in their willingness to purvey myths and misinformation to sell the stuff. Knife-land is full of mythology and misinformation and in my experience the people who re-sell these knives are some of the worst purveyors of it. Like what you like, get what you like, but when I think objectively about a knife as an object or as a tool, and what am I actually getting, these knives in particular are some of the poorest value I've seen. You could say they have some less quantifiable value because of the charm, but that's a product of marketing. It might be through proxy, but these guys clearly have excellent marketing skills.

Just objectively speaking as tools, and also speaking based on how they're made, which lets be real, these are made from stamping out pre-laminated sheets, then stock removed on a belt grinder, these knives are comically overpriced for what they sell for in North America. I paid over $200 for a 150 mm Kato petty, it's AS and damascus clad. Cool. It's one the a handful of the same pre-laminated damascus billets all these guys in their knife village buy and use. Idk, I just have a bad taste in my mouth about it because of the way the was sold to me, and I see other people too who leave reviews talking about their "amazing hand forged knives." A full priced Shun is less over priced and also better performing, and frankly as an object just a better knife. Yeah, I said it. Have you seen the handles some of these masakages ship with? Like the Yuki model. They're bad, as in cheap junk. I just checked KnifeWear, a 210 Yuki Gyoto sells for around $225 USD.

 

[ReiHamono]

All of the knives are like that

 

[bsfsu]

I have been talking with a blacksmith in Japan. He said many people say he is not a real blacksmith because he uses pre laminated steel, in the form of rizaki generally but also San Mai.

He can forge weld but since his father passed away, 5 or so years ago, his production level has dropped. He has to use pre-laminated steel to keep his family business, of 3 generations, profitable.

The laminated steel is made in factories that create a high quality welded steel, they have been making this for many decades. If steel is welded in-house, there is a higher rate of de-lamination, lost time and money. He makes over 100 different forged products and about 1500-2000 knives per year, by himself. He just wants to make sharp knives.

He forge welds all of his single bevel knives but the forge welding is done far in advance of the actual forging of the knife. He said for long knives the steel is forge welded and then left to rest for 1-3 years.

Japanese knives are cheaper in Japan but you have to factor all the associated costs involved in selling knives. Once you add

Knife cost
Shipping
Taxes
Exchange rate
Overheads
Profits

You end up with the sell price. These are fluctuating costs, shipping alone has doubled for me this year from Japan.

You can go directly to Japan and cut the middle man but when you want to get it sharpened/polished/fixed do you send it back to Japan? I have people bring in knives 'brought online' from overseas stores and it would cost half the knife in shipping to send it back to get fixed. Your local store might not have the exact knife you want but they might be able to get it in for you? Shop at your local knife store (if there is one close).

I'm not going to comment on the selling techniques of some sellers.

 

[ocanada]

I can't comment if this is true or not, but you would think that if that were true for the in-demand models, the perfect arbitrage opportunity would be to go to Japan, buy up all these Kato knives that are 'just laying around', and bring it back with you to resell for 4x your money. The profit would basically be guaranteed given how fast these things sell out

Either that, the shops would switch to selling international (or sell them off to some middleman who does international), especially since that poster says there isn't much of a demand for them domestically

Anyway, it might be true, but feels like there's some unexplained gaps to me

 

[Corradobrit1]

I can't comment if this is true or not, but you would think that if that were true for the in-demand models, the perfect arbitrage opportunity would be to go to Japan, buy up all these Kato knives that are 'just laying around', and bring it back with you to resell for 4x your money. The profit would basically be guaranteed given how fast these things sell out

Either that, the shops would switch to selling international (or sell them off to some middleman who does international), especially since that poster says there isn't much of a demand for them domestically

Anyway, it might be true, but feels like there's some unexplained gaps to me

A couple of guys on Buyee do exactly that. Hoover up all the Kato's, Shigs and Ashi Honyaki and spruik them to the eager overseas buyers. There's one guy on Ebay selling a Shig Ku 165 santoku for $750 ffs

 

[ocanada]

A couple of guys on Buyee do exactly that. Hoover up all the Kato's, Shigs and Ashi Honyaki and spruick them to the eager overseas buyers. There's one guy on Ebay selling a Shig Ku 165 santoku for $750 ffs

Well - in that case, provided they actually get traction and sell their products, then for all intents and purposes the actual price is the overseas price. It doesn't really matter if the Japanese market enjoys the product or not, given the immense demand overseas.

I wholeheartedly agree there is a degree of mysticism that no doubt drives demand and big premiums for makers like Shig and Kato, but that doesn't mean that's the whole story. The Japanese market not seeing value in the product doesn't mean that the value doesn't exist (at least for some buyers).

(That said, I would never pay $750 for a Shig KU santoku... I'm already a bit iffy about having spent ~$200 on mine)

 

[ethompson]

Maybe a store somewhere in Japan has a Yoshiaki Fujiwara or Shigefusa in stock for slightly less than prices were about 10 years ago in the west, but that’s certainly not the rule. There isn’t just stock on shelves of $300 Kato 240s or $450 Kitaeji yanagibas. These knives are a little cheaper in Japan, but it’s nothing dramatic compared to western retail (not the more expensive BST prices) based on a lot of people I’ve talked to who have done or tried to do just that

 

[ocanada]

Maybe a store somewhere in Japan has a Yoshiaki Fujiwara or Shigefusa in stock for slightly less than prices were about 10 years ago in the west, but that’s certainly not the rule. There isn’t just stock on shelves of $300 Kato 240s or $450 Kitaeji yanagibas. These knives are a little cheaper in Japan, but it’s nothing dramatic compared to western retail (not the more expensive BST prices) based on a lot of people I’ve talked to who have done or tried to do just that

Thank you for making me feel better about buying one of the latest JNS Shig yanagiba

 

[nakiriknaifuwaifu]

I have been talking with a blacksmith in Japan. He makes over 100 different forged products and about 1500-2000 knives per year, by himself. He just wants to make sharp knives.

mazaki confirmed

 

[Lurkernomore]

There isn’t just stock on shelves

This is the main point really. All pricing discussions on the domestic market are pretty much hypothetical. Kato knives are just not there anymore, only kiridashi odds and ends. I tried to order a knife at Kikuhide in Tokyo and he rejected me saying it would take two years and the guy may retire or even die halfway through as he’s already past eighty. The dying bit was a bit wtf but yeah. Maybe I got the “random foreigner“ treatment but he wasn’t hostile so I guess it’s kinda the truth.

I still think the whole statement was a) a rant and b) based on BST asking prices for random kiridashi. That’s asking, not market or retail price, and there are a few outliers if you go through the old offers.

 

[M1k3]

 

[EShin]

I can't comment if this is true or not, but you would think that if that were true for the in-demand models, the perfect arbitrage opportunity would be to go to Japan, buy up all these Kato knives that are 'just laying around', and bring it back with you to resell for 4x your money. The profit would basically be guaranteed given how fast these things sell out

Either that, the shops would switch to selling international (or sell them off to some middleman who does international), especially since that poster says there isn't much of a demand for them domestically

Anyway, it might be true, but feels like there's some unexplained gaps to me

If I understood it right, the post on Reddit said that kiridashis can be a quarter of the price, not the knives. Not much demand for kiridashis, but obviously demand for knives is there and you just don’t find a Kato lying around somewhere for cheap. People know exactly how popular these knives are now. Nowhere in stock except for places that try to sell them for fantasy prices. It’s been many years since Shigefusa KUs sold at around 14000 Yen, now you’re lucky if you find one for 24000.

 

[Mute-on]

Maybe a store somewhere in Japan has a Yoshiaki Fujiwara or Shigefusa in stock for slightly less than prices were about 10 years ago in the west, but that’s certainly not the rule. There isn’t just stock on shelves of $300 Kato 240s or $450 Kitaeji yanagibas. These knives are a little cheaper in Japan, but it’s nothing dramatic compared to western retail (not the more expensive BST prices) based on a lot of people I’ve talked to who have done or tried to do just that

Whilst this is getting closer to reality, it still isn’t quite on point.

You will not find a Shig or Kato in Japan for anything like western prices in 2013, no way in hell. 2014-15 was the time to be buying, with relatively plentiful supply (so much so that Shig western gyutos would sit unsold for weeks at JNS. No, I’m not kidding. Yes I finally caved and grabbed one. Only ONE. IDIOT!).

Even in 2018, a Shig 210 Kitaeji Usuba was over 120000 Yen (Kyoto - no I didn’t buy it, yes I was still an idiot). In 2016, a Shig Kitaeji kiridashi was already over 70000 yen (Tokyo), in 2018 a Kato Damascus Kiridashi was over 75000 Yen (Kyoto). Yes I bought them all, and more (that time).

I’ve never even seen a Shig or Kato gyuto in Japan. Shig yanagiba, ajikiri, nakiri, santoku, sure, but only on a couple of occasions. Yes they were slightly cheaper than western prices, but only by 10-15%. I know (and have visited over 2016-19) a couple of places that stock Shig regularly, but I’m not exactly hunting them down. Not been to Morihei, either, so YMMV.

In future, I would be surprised to see any Shigs or Katos on a shelf, anywhere. I’ll let you know next year ….

 

[simona]

As said above, two different makers, but Yoshimi Kato (and many other from Takefu) knives are indeed hammer forged and made by hand. Most are forged with a spring hammer, ground with a large sharpening wheel, and heat treated by a human (depends on the steel).

In my experience, they are pretty good knives. You can find better, you can find worse, but overall they are a good deal for the performance and fit and finish that you get.

If you're interested in more "artisanal" knives, I would suggest looking at a Mikami knife. Blue #1 laminated by hand, forged by a blacksmith who is now dead, and sharpened by his son who is a certified swordsmith.

Hinokuni is also another good choice. A very young blacksmith that forge welds White #1.

Also, a knife made from stock removal is still handmade.

Second that on the Mikami.

If I understood it right, the post on Reddit said that kiridashis can be a quarter of the price, not the knives. Not much demand for kiridashis, but obviously demand for knives is there and you just don’t find a Kato lying around somewhere for cheap. People know exactly how popular these knives are now. Nowhere in stock except for places that try to sell them for fantasy prices. It’s been many years since Shigefusa KUs sold at around 14000 Yen, now you’re lucky if you find one for 24000.

A few days ago a 175 Shig KU nakiri sold for 64500Y. on a yahoo.jp auction. The same seller on the same day sold a 165 Kato santuko for just over 163 000. A Shigefusa Kitaeji Kitchen Petty Knife went for 190 000Y.
At the moment another 175 KU nakiri is at 40 000, and the same seller has a Kato 195 santuko which is at 121 000, and if pattern follows pattern it will go up another 100 000 or so in the next 14 hours.

https://www.jauce.com/user/mitsuaki_5

 

[Hassanbensober]

Typically bad form to post live auctions here. I’m not bidding so I’m neutral. Just saying

 

[jedy617]

Typically bad form to post live auctions here. I’m not bidding so I’m neutral. Just saying

And why is that? I've seen people post auctions dozens of times. Why not share? As long as they aren't your own knives who cares? I mean even then I don't think anyone really minds.

 

[esoo]

Any KU Shig over $240 is a waste of money based on the one I had. Fit and finish was top notch but had one of the worst grinds I've experienced. 2.1mm thick 10mm from the edge was just horrible

 

[Hassanbensober]

And why is that? I've seen people post auctions dozens of times. Why not share? As long as they aren't your own knives who cares? I mean even then I don't think anyone really minds.

I can’t stop it. Do as you please. Was definitely not cool in earlier years. I know I’m not the only one who feels that way.