Mid-tier ginsan knife?

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heirkb

heirkb

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I’ve been looking for a ginsan (or similarly easy to sharpen stainless—e.g. SKD) guyto and petty for use in a professional setting. I already have a Heiji semi-stainless guyto and petty I love for home, but I want something a bit thinner and, importantly, cheaper for work. Sick of sharpening most stainless I’ve tried, I turned to ginsan and SKD as options.

I’m seeing mostly really expensive options (e.g. lots of love for Nakagawa ginsan, Kagekiyo ginsan, Hado ginsan, or Yoshikane SKD) or a slew of generic cheapo options around $100-150 (Tsunehisa, Yahiko, etc.), with some claiming there’s a huge quality difference and others saying there isn’t.

Is there no mid-range option (say, $200-300 for gyutos) with these types of steels? Ideally something with a thin tip and flatter profile, good geometry, good balance of edge retention and durability/sharpenability.
 
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I second the Shigeki Tanaka. Have used one of his 210 ginsan gyuto's for years in a professional environment and it's one of the best value for money knives I've used to this day. Steel is very nice, f&f punch above it's price and the grinds are thin without being fragile!
 
Sukenari also comes to mind but their cheaper ginsan line seems to be eternally out of stock.
 
I'm in the Shigeki Tanaka camp as well for ginsan at that price point. I have the 210mm gyuto and 150mm petty, and they could be the only set of knives I use. Good cutters without being fragile, and easy to sharpen.
 
Interesting to see the Tanaka love roll in. A handle-less Tanaka 240 was one of the the only things I’d come across myself.

The Tanaka petty seems like a perennially out of stock item. Anywhere stocking them?
 
I am pretty sure I read here somewhere that lately the Tanaka's aren't what they used to be.
(but that's only hear-say... Perhaps somebody has experience with a recent Tanaka?)
 
@riba thanks for noting that. I did some more digging and found a few threads mentioning grind issues with recent batches.
 
heirkb said:
At this point, I’m leaning towards one of these for a 210 gyuto (already have a 270 that I reach for less and less):

https://knife-life.jp/catalog/kagekiyo-silver-3-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-3-walnut-oval-handle/
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...-wide-bevel-gyuto-210mm-with-k-s-ebony-handle
Strikes me as odd that the Nakagawa at K&S is almost half the price of other sites. If it really is the real thing, I’ll probably pick up the 150 petty from them.
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I was going to mention that you can find the knives forged by Nakagawa within your price range. The price was normal but has been going up and will increase more in the next couple of months, so KNS is one of the last places that still has some last stock from probably last years batch. The knives are fantastic in all aspects and edge retention of the Mr. Nakagawa’s ginsan is the best from my experience, but I don’t know if you like wide bevels or prefer a convex grind. In that case, Sakai Kanechika that is sold from tower knives might be another good option within your price range that hasn’t been mentioned. By the way, I’ve mentioned before that there is a difference in quality between. Tsunehisa and for example Mr. Nakagawa’s knives, but Tsunehisa is really good for the price. If you like the specs, I don’t think you will be disappointed.
 
Most likely K&S pricing reflects that those were acquired as a previous batch when pricing was still lower. You saw something similar with Wakui knives at K&S that also went for surprisingly low prices because they were ordered a few years before at very good prices. K&S tends to pass on that good price instead of maximizing profit.
 
EShin said:
I was going to mention that you can find the knives forged by Nakagawa within your price range. The price was normal but has been going up and will increase more in the next couple of months, so KNS is one of the last places that still has some last stock from probably last years batch. The knives are fantastic in all aspects and edge retention of the Mr. Nakagawa’s ginsan is the best from my experience, but I don’t know if you like wide bevels or prefer a convex grind. In that case, Sakai Kanechika that is sold from tower knives might be another good option within your price range that hasn’t been mentioned. By the way, I’ve mentioned before that there is a difference in quality between. Tsunehisa and for example Mr. Nakagawa’s knives, but Tsunehisa is really good for the price. If you like the specs, I don’t think you will be disappointed.
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Thanks for this thorough reply. Can’t say I have a strong preference necessarily between wide bevel or a plain convex, as grinds vary so much within those categories. I want something that cuts easily, won’t wedge excessively, and has good food release. Wide bevels tend to do really well on 1 and 3 in my experience, but they can be prone to wedging in really hard roots. But my Heiji gyutos have always been fairly ok even on that front. Long way of saying, I’m not sure—have you tried both Kagekiyo and Nakagawa (or any of the others listed here) by chance and have any impressions of how they may perform differently?

HumbleHomeCook said:
Any reason to not step up into SG2/R2? Opens up some options not the least of which are Takamura and Kurosaki.

Just a thought.
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Largely due to my lack of knowledge about those steels, as I haven’t been as active in the knife nerd hobby in recent years. Do they offer similar ease of sharpening as ginsan, assuming HT is done well and whatnot?
 
heirkb said:
Thanks for this thorough reply. Can’t say I have a strong preference necessarily between wide bevel or a plain convex, as grinds vary so much within those categories. I want something that cuts easily, won’t wedge excessively, and has good food release. Wide bevels tend to do really well on 1 and 3 in my experience, but they can be prone to wedging in really hard roots. But my Heiji gyutos have always been fairly ok even on that front. Long way of saying, I’m not sure—have you tried both Kagekiyo and Nakagawa (or any of the others listed here) by chance and have any impressions of how they may perform differently?



Largely due to my lack of knowledge about those steels, as I haven’t been as active in the knife nerd hobby in recent years. Do they offer similar ease of sharpening as ginsan, assuming HT is done well and whatnot?
Click to expand...

No, SG2 or R2 (same steel) are not as easy to sharpen as Ginsan. I prefer a simple plated diamond stone for them but not required.

Here's an elemental comparison:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=SG2,Ginsan&ni=576,5008&hrn=1&gm=0
I wouldn't say SG2 is hard to sharpen, not like a super hard ZDP-189, at least not for me. It's a Powder Metallurgy steel which means very fine grains and that equates to very keen edges that last. In no way would I say it is difficult to sharpen, just a little different. In terms of Ginsan vs. SG2 I guess I'd kind of relate it to Shirogami vs. AS.

SRS-15 (not -13 which is carbon) is very similar.

https://www.epicedge.com/shopdispla...xact=&atleast=&without=&cprice=&searchfields=
 
Tadasuna has been using Ginsan for a long time in their INOX series knives. Lasers, they meet the "thin" requirement and easy to sharpen. Quality knives at mid tier pricing. A Frames Tokyo (out of Hawaii) carries them.

The Tanaka from KnS that was mentioned above, is another solid knife at mid tier pricing.
 
heirkb said:
At this point, I’m leaning towards one of these for a 210 gyuto (already have a 270 that I reach for less and less):

https://knife-life.jp/catalog/kagekiyo-silver-3-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-3-walnut-oval-handle/
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...-wide-bevel-gyuto-210mm-with-k-s-ebony-handle
Strikes me as odd that the Nakagawa at K&S is almost half the price of other sites. If it really is the real thing, I’ll probably pick up the 150 petty from them.
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The Kagekiyo walnut handle you posted is quite nice IMO, had a 240 and liked it a lot. There's a Yoshi skd on BST right now for a solid price if ktips are your thing.
 
heirkb said:
Thanks for this thorough reply. Can’t say I have a strong preference necessarily between wide bevel or a plain convex, as grinds vary so much within those categories. I want something that cuts easily, won’t wedge excessively, and has good food release. Wide bevels tend to do really well on 1 and 3 in my experience, but they can be prone to wedging in really hard roots. But my Heiji gyutos have always been fairly ok even on that front. Long way of saying, I’m not sure—have you tried both Kagekiyo and Nakagawa (or any of the others listed here) by chance and have any impressions of how they may perform differently?



Largely due to my lack of knowledge about those steels, as I haven’t been as active in the knife nerd hobby in recent years. Do they offer similar ease of sharpening as ginsan, assuming HT is done well and whatnot?
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Both are forged by the same blacksmith, Satoshi Nakagawa, so the difference is in how the are ground. The Kagekiyo will most likely be the nimbler knife that also feels quite thin (but not like a pure laser). The wide bevel one has a bit more steel, but is still really thin behind the edge thanks to the concave grind. Both will cut almost effortlessly, and while the Kagekiyo won't wedge at all (and the Nakagawa only very little), the Nakagawa is better with food release when it comes to sticky/wet ingredients. But all these factors can be adjusted to your likings, e.g. if wedging is an issue, you can grind the shoulders of the wide bevel a bit off. Sorry I can't really give you a good answer but in the end, it's mostly preference I guess.
 
Maybe look into some Western makers that use aebl or swedish stainless

Knot handcrafted is in that range
 
EShin said:
Both are forged by the same blacksmith, Satoshi Nakagawa, so the difference is in how the are ground. The Kagekiyo will most likely be the nimbler knife that also feels quite thin (but not like a pure laser). The wide bevel one has a bit more steel, but is still really thin behind the edge thanks to the concave grind. Both will cut almost effortlessly, and while the Kagekiyo won't wedge at all (and the Nakagawa only very little), the Nakagawa is better with food release when it comes to sticky/wet ingredients. But all these factors can be adjusted to your likings, e.g. if wedging is an issue, you can grind the shoulders of the wide bevel a bit off. Sorry I can't really give you a good answer but in the end, it's mostly preference I guess.
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This was actually really helpful. Thank you!

Seems the Nakagawa sale at K&S ended while I was waffling, so just based on price, I’d likely go with Kagekiyo out of these two options.
 
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Hitohira Kikuchiyo Ren Silver #3 Gyuto 240mm Ho Wood Handle

1688351703055.png
 
Yet another +1 for S. Tanaka here, I like his ginsan better on the stones and better edge retention than Yoshimi Kato ginsan (though I like his too, just feel a keener edge with Tanaka)

I just ordered a K&S version as a gift and it's definitely curvier than my Cook's Edge version, several mm shorter as well. Everything else up to par of better than mine.

I really like mine, it's a great jack-of-all-trades knives that can crush big squash then brunoise herbs and mince garlic after. My only gripe is the lack of Sanjo-drastic distal taper, which seems to be solved in the modern K&S version which has a quite thin tip. Pretty much your perfect mid-tier ginsan
 
Thanks @SwampDonkey. Curvier edge profile is a bit of a bummer, especially since the knife looks like such a nice flat profile in the K&S photos. Perhaps when time comes to upgrade my 270, I’ll ask K&S for some shots of one of their Tanakas on a board or something.
 
heirkb said:
I saw these as well but couldn’t find them in stock. Seems to be Nakagawa forged, if the kanji on the back is any indicator? (Going off the fact that the top line of the “San” character has a slight branched end like on Nakagawa’s knives)
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"Kikuchiyo" is a pseudonym Hitohira uses to refer to Satoshi Nakagawa.
 
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