Most useful single bevel knife for non-Japanese cooking?

[Dan S.]

My previous thread on nomenclature morphed into a totally different question, so I figure I might as well start a fresh thread.

I am looking for my first (and perhaps only) single bevel knife. I have lots of western and Chinese knives that I enjoy daily, but I’d like to try a single bevel knife. They seem different, interesting, beautiful, and cool. I don’t prepare Japanese food, however (except for _very_ occasional sashimi if my friend brings me some fish from his boat).

So, given that I only cook western and Chinese, which single bevel knife would I find most useful and interesting? I understand that single bevel Japanese knives are generally designed for specific tasks in Japanese cuisine, but I wonder if one could not enjoy some sort of single bevel knife even for non-Japanese cuisine. I’m pretty adaptable in the kitchen, and I’m always willing to try new things.

Originally I thought the answer might be a kiritsuke, but that may be the wrong answer. Someone suggested a yanagi might be the one, and funayuki also came up in the discussion.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Dan

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Do you freehand sharpen?

 

[Dan S.]

Do you freehand sharpen?

I am just starting to learn. I’ve never been satisfied with other people sharpening my knives, so I will be free hand sharpening from now on.

 

[Qapla']

I don’t prepare Japanese food, however (except for _very_ occasional sashimi if my friend brings me some fish from his boat).

Do you butcher these fish yourself?

 

[Dan S.]

Do you butcher these fish yourself?

No. I’m not opposed to starting, but it’s not currently part of my repertoire. And I don’t think I’d buy a knife mainly for that purpose.

 

[blokey]

Most of the single bevel Japanese knives are mainly for single purpose, I'd say butcher knife like Honesuki or Deba make more sense than Usuba or Yanagi. I'd just get a Gyuto, Santoku or Nakiri, those are as authentic as the single bevelled Japanese knives.

 

[Qapla']

No. I’m not opposed to starting, but it’s not currently part of my repertoire. And I don’t think I’d buy a knife mainly for that purpose.

Then I'd recommend a yanagiba as your first Japanese single-bevel knife. You can use it to skin the filets and to slice the sashimi, and maybe occasionally muck around with things like katsuramuki and a few other things. As was pointed out in the other thread, there are some who go as far as to use it as an "everything knife", but those guys were cooking Japanese foods; your western and Chinese knives would do much better in the capacity of all-purpose knives.

Others pointed out honesuki's as a good first choice. Honesuki's bear an extremely asymmetric double-bevel (though a few true single-bevel ones exist) and can be used for various butchery tasks.

Are you righty? Japanese traditional knives for lefties often, but not always, are sold at a nasty premium and may have to be special-ordered.

 

[mengwong]

Agreed – a yanagiba would be great for slicing brisket, carpaccio, ham, basically any bulk boneless Christmas protein.

If the price is right, something like a Sakai Takayuki Kasumitogi Yanagiba 300mm would be a lovely first-and-only single-bevel high-carbon Japanese knife. (If you're going single-bevel, might as well go carbon too.)

Mine is a more entry-level Tojiro F-908 in the same steel.

That edge is fine.

So fine, in fact, that if you hit a peppercorn – a bit of burnt end – or even a grain of salt – you're guaranteed hours of sharpening fun.

I wasn't having fun.

That's why most people use their yanagiba only for fish. Boneless fish. On a rubber or cypress or Hi-Soft cutting board, ideally.

What's less fragile than a concave-ura yanagiba? A flat-sided single-bevel sujihiki, e.g. Fujiwara Kanefusa FKM Series Danbiki … I have the similar FKH-06 in SK-4.

If you decide life is too short to re-apex the single bevel 100/0 grind on that beast, you can beat a graceful retreat to 70/30 while you're still young.

Hope this helps!

 

[Qapla']

That edge is fine.

So fine, in fact, that if you hit a peppercorn – a bit of burnt end – or even a grain of salt – you're guaranteed hours of sharpening fun.

That's why most people use their yanagiba only for fish. Boneless fish. On a rubber or cypress or Hi-Soft cutting board.

OP, this is an exaggeration.

I've used yanagiba's and other single-bevel carbon-steel knives, and I use them on polymer boards (which are disliked by the forum). Over the course of my admittedly low-skill use I've had small chips in some of them over time. But the idea of hours of sharpening required to polish them out if they hit a grain of salt is simply not true.

Don't be scared away from single-bevel knives.

 

[EShin]

My previous thread on nomenclature morphed into a totally different question, so I figure I might as well start a fresh thread.

I am looking for my first (and perhaps only) single bevel knife. I have lots of western and Chinese knives that I enjoy daily, but I’d like to try a single bevel knife. They seem different, interesting, beautiful, and cool. I don’t prepare Japanese food, however (except for _very_ occasional sashimi if my friend brings me some fish from his boat).

So, given that I only cook western and Chinese, which single bevel knife would I find most useful and interesting? I understand that single bevel Japanese knives are generally designed for specific tasks in Japanese cuisine, but I wonder if one could not enjoy some sort of single bevel knife even for non-Japanese cuisine. I’m pretty adaptable in the kitchen, and I’m always willing to try new things.

Originally I thought the answer might be a kiritsuke, but that may be the wrong answer. Someone suggested a yanagi might be the one, and funayuki also came up in the discussion.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Dan

I think particularly Ochazuke answered your question quite clearly and made a very good suggestion. From what you're describing, there's no task for which a double bevel knife wouldn't be more useful. Even in Japanese households we don't usually have a single bevel knife, they mostly get used by professionals. But I understand that you want to get a single bevel knife anyway, so the question is which one. I agree with yanagiba or funayuki. Yanagiba is good for making sashimi, but as others have pointed out, you can also use it for other slicing tasks. But if you already have a sujihiki, the usefulness will be very limited. Funayuki can be used for more tasks. In either case, use them with a microbevel to prevent chipping.

 

[Delat]

Let me toss in a curveball - what about a single-bevel s-grind from a Western maker? Those have the advantage of good food release, so you can benefit from using it for more everyday tasks like slicing veggies.

 

[btbyrd]

The most useful thing in your kitchen would be a kiridashi for opening packaging.

More seriously, I'd think more about what types of Japanese foods are most appealing to you, buy the appropriate knife, and get to know your knife by making the foods that are most appropriate to it. That way you can grow your knife collection, knife skills, and overall cooking repertoire at the same time. This approach makes way more sense than buying a knife and trying to make it cut in ways that weren't intended.

I understand that single bevel Japanese knives are generally designed for specific tasks in Japanese cuisine, but I wonder if one could not enjoy some sort of single bevel knife even for non-Japanese cuisine. I’m pretty adaptable in the kitchen, and I’m always willing to try new things.

The short answer is that I don't think you can fully enjoy a true single bevel J-knife if you don't make Japanese food. If you don't eat fish, a deba is useless. If you don't slice raw fish, a yanagiba is borderline useless. Sure, you can use them to slice other stuff, but the chisel grind will make the knife steer and produce uneven slices unless you consciously adapt your technique to counter that tendency. A sujihiki is a better general slicer that can also slice fish, but it's double beveled. Usubas also steer, and unless you're interested in doing katsuramuki or other Japanese knife techniques, there's no advantage (and some significant drawback) to choosing a usuba over a nakiri.

Western debas (which are double beveled), sujihikis (which are double beveled yanagiba), or nakiris (basically double beveled usubas) are all much better choices if you're interested in purchasing a Japanese knife to cook non-Japanese food. Or a gyuto or double beveled funiyuki. Or something else.

 

[riba]

The most useful thing in your kitchen would be a kiridashi for opening packaging.

True in my kitchen

 

[J_Wisdom]

I don't know if I should chime in, but I was in recent years, in his place. My first real single bevel was a kenmuki/mukimono made out of ginsan. I was worried about getting a white or blue steel, and the ginsan was listed as semi-stainless. The kenmuki was the least expensive from Yoshihiro for my experiment. At first, it takes some getting used to, but I started loving it and still love it. So much, I decided I wanted more. I bought a yanagiba also in ginsan, but haven't used it a lot, but some great tuna slices lately. Next, I bought an Usaba despite reading a lot of reasons not to. I love it a ton! I used the Usaba this week slicing onions, bell pepper, and celery while making crawfish étouffée. This last Christmas, I bought Shapton Glass stones after so many here seemed to really like them. I love them, and they enable me to love the knives more. It does take time to change some techniques, but I'm getting good results with most of my veggie cutting.

 

[Qapla']

OP, your location is listed as New Jersey; maybe you could go visit Korin in NYC and handle some yanagiba's and honesuki's in person yourself?

 

[nickw_]

Sounds like a tool looking for a job, instead of a job looking for the right tool.

As shared, this all comes down to your cooking style in the food you prepare. Even within western and Chinese cuisine it’s still hard to guess, as there is a variety of dishes in both cuisines.

A deba, honesuki and yanagiba have already been shared. The yanagiba might be the only knife you have a specific use case for, based on what’s been shared. The deba sounds like it’s not needed. A honesuki would be useful if you break down poultry.

Something that hasn’t been shared yet is a usuba. It’s the first single bevel knife a Japanese chef learns to use. Fantastic for thin slicing veggies. But I am not sure how many vegetables you eat, or how you eat them.

Something else worth considering is resale if you decide single bevel knives are not for you. A yanagiba (270mm or 300mm) will probably be the easiest knife to sell later, or perhaps a honesuki. With the caveat here, as long as you are right handed. A left handed version will probably take longer to sell.

 

[Dan S.]

Something that hasn’t been shared yet is a usuba.

I prepare lots of veggies, but from what folks are saying it seems that an usuba may be the least adaptable to non Japanese cooking. Is that not accurate?

How would an usuba, kiritsuke, and funayuki (single bevel) all compare for veggies?

 

[Qapla']

I prepare lots of veggies, but from what folks are saying it seems that an usuba may be the least adaptable to non Japanese cooking. Is that not accurate?

How would an usuba, kiritsuke, and funayuki (single bevel) all compare for veggies?

A kiritsuke has already been gone into in your other thread.

An usuba would likely not be recommended unless it's your intention to practice the cutting techniques specific to Japanese cooking. Your currently extant Chinese knives or your western knives might be better choices for dicing lots of vegetables.

A single-bevel funayuki is essentially a lightweight variant of deba that's somewhat more usable as a general-purpose knife within a Japanese context. It won't be as useful overall in a non-Japanese context as a double-bevel one would be. As you already have western knives, you might not need any such thing.

I'd recommend going to Korin in NYC (if you're in that area of NJ) and handling some yanagiba's, honesuki's, and funayuki's yourself so you can decide rather than having us argue forever.

 

[btbyrd]

Usuba steer because of the chisel grind and because of the ura. Normal push cutting doesn't work well and you often end up with weird, uneven shapes. You need to use draw cuts to get even slices (at least of denser items) or otherwise adjust your technique to fight the steering. That's why I prefer a nakiri or Chinese cleaver over a usuba for making non-Japanese food.



That is also why I don't particularly like yanagiba for slicing firm non-fishy protein. The slices can come out uneven unless you compensate for the steering. A suji works much better.

 

[Choppin]

I use my Toyama 135 mukimono everyday. Best in-hand peeler. If you enjoy fruit, might be a useful option.

I also got a yanagi recently. I like having one even though I have sujis and don't use it super often. It's fun looking for new recipes as an excuse to use it - gyudon, oyakodon, shabu shabu... there's a bunch of Asian recipes where thinly sliced protein is used, in case you are open to try new things. Also, many western dishes like carpaccio (meat and fish), sashimi, crudo, steak tartare...

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Started out using a sujihiki at work to slice food including front line cold kitchen orders of sashimi. As sushi got popular we got a automatic sushi machine that made small single pieces. We would put wasabi on rice one sheet pan at a time. Then put on toppings egg nori, ebi shrimp, Ahi, hamachi, etc. When they wanted me to cut sashimi platters for buffets bought my first Yanagiba. Was taught how to make good sushi rice for the machine & how to use a yanagiba by a Japanese sushi chef. Also how to sharpen yanagiba. Had white & blue steel yanagiba's. They were my most prized knives. Both 270mm. Kahala Hilton Hotel costumers loved sushi & sashimi.

They are specialty blades single bevel is a single draw slice, the ura- concave backside let's the un cut block separate from the blade to layer slices in rows. The edge is fragile esp if not using a mico bevel. Nothing beats a yanagiba for clean slices of fish. They are some of the sharpest edges you can get on knives.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Retired home yanagiba 240mm use it for entertaining & family parties. Nigiri sushi & sashimi are always popular. Janice's cousin has a tempura fryer. I make shrimp & vegetables tempura with dipping sauce.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

 

[Qapla']

Retired home yanagiba 240mm use it for entertaining & family parties. Nigiri sushi & sashimi are always popular. Janice's cousin has a tempura fryer. I make shrimp & vegetables tempura with dipping sauce.

Is it useful for Hawaiian food as well?

 

[Blank Blades.]

Agreed – a yanagiba would be great for slicing brisket, carpaccio, ham, basically any bulk boneless Christmas protein.

If the price is right, something like a Sakai Takayuki Kasumitogi Yanagiba 300mm would be a lovely first-and-only single-bevel high-carbon Japanese knife. (If you're going single-bevel, might as well go carbon too.)

Mine is a more entry-level Tojiro F-908 in the same steel.

That edge is fine.

So fine, in fact, that if you hit a peppercorn – a bit of burnt end – or even a grain of salt – you're guaranteed hours of sharpening fun.



That's why most people use their yanagiba only for fish. Boneless fish. On a rubber or cypress or Hi-Soft cutting board, ideally.

What's less fragile than a concave-ura yanagiba? A flat-sided single-bevel sujihiki, e.g. Fujiwara Kanefusa FKM Series Danbiki … I have the similar FKH-06 in SK-4.

If you decide life is too short to re-apex the single bevel 100/0 grind on that beast, you can beat a graceful retreat to 70/30 while you're still young.

Hope this helps!

Or ad a koba. (It will increase the strength too).

 

[Blank Blades.]

What are common dishes you make? You said western, and chinese. Those are very broad categories. Maybe if you tell us what you are normally cooking, someone could give a better suggestion.

I personally think a yanagiba would be a good choice for someone that is slicing a lot of boneless protein, and really wanted a single bevel. I suggest putting a koba on the edge, to avoid chipping, if doing so.

A deba could work for butcher work, but I think would be less useful than something like a honesuki, which is able to actually fit between bones, and into tighter spaces.

The usuba, it's not impossible, although, using it would be much slower than any double bevel knife when processing vegetables, just because if the nature doing drawcuts to keep them from drifting.

So I think the yanagiba is your best bet. Unless you list some dishes you cook that make someone here think of something that would make more sense.

Honestly just buy what you want the most. Does it really matter if you use it all the time? You clearly want to try a single bevel, and you're probably not going to be satisfied until you get what you really want. So if you really want a kiritsuke, buy a kiritsuke.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Is it useful for Hawaiian food as well?

You could cut Pipikaula with it. Most Hawaiian food use 70/30 Japanese gyuto.

 

[Se1ryu]

My previous thread on nomenclature morphed into a totally different question, so I figure I might as well start a fresh thread.

I am looking for my first (and perhaps only) single bevel knife. I have lots of western and Chinese knives that I enjoy daily, but I’d like to try a single bevel knife. They seem different, interesting, beautiful, and cool. I don’t prepare Japanese food, however (except for _very_ occasional sashimi if my friend brings me some fish from his boat).

So, given that I only cook western and Chinese, which single bevel knife would I find most useful and interesting? I understand that single bevel Japanese knives are generally designed for specific tasks in Japanese cuisine, but I wonder if one could not enjoy some sort of single bevel knife even for non-Japanese cuisine. I’m pretty adaptable in the kitchen, and I’m always willing to try new things.

Originally I thought the answer might be a kiritsuke, but that may be the wrong answer. Someone suggested a yanagi might be the one, and funayuki also came up in the discussion.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Dan

I recommend go the nearest knife store in your area and you can hold it, feel it and decide it yourself which one is the right knife for you.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Korin is in NYC. Most Kiritsuke knives sold are not single bevel. Some that are SB have poor shinogi line & flat backside. Just because a knife has Damascus doesn't mean it comes with good geometry.

Hocho Knife has a nice Sakai Takayuki SB white 2 steel Kiritsuke. On sale 240mm 263.99. The 210mm on sale too.

 

[Pisau]

Single bevel gyutos, santokus, even sujihiki* exist. Those handle pretty much the same as double bevel other than the steer. However, I think they have more limited general appeal than even a yanagiba. There's a bloke on insta who scrubs a single bevel santoku over and over on uber stones costing more than my kitchen's worth. He mainly cuts printer paper or tomato, and sometimes a banana; ironically whose lifestyle was enabled by adventurous souls driven by nomenclatures and "best" use case regurgitated by the truth machine.

I'm not knocking you OP, just making an observation...

You mentioned chinese food. I regularly make charsiew and I slice with a yanagiba (or takobiki depending on size), despite having a sujihiki and a kebab slicer. Should I? No. Should you? That's up to you. I wouldn't recommend it, but I'll hold your beer nonetheless...

My first single bevel was a kiridashi for cabinet making/carpentry. These days I have a similar kogatana, which also does kitchen utility. Why not try one before you go big? Get a plain kiridashi with at least two inches edge, try getting perfect rondells out of half a dozen carrots, and get confident in sharpening a single bevel that small before jumping in icy waters.

*Before you ask: Tadafusa 300mm. No urasuki. More like 99/1 than single bevel. Hybrid handle.