My theory on the Shun business model

[spaceconvoy]

With the holidays coming up I've been thinking about why Shuns are so popular among the average American foodie home cook (ie, my family), and I've developed the following theory, based on two important principles:

- Consumers only pay close attention to details when they're considering a purchase

- Consumers are easily flattered and they love buying stuff that makes them feel more skilled

The paradox I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while now is: why are Shuns so popular even though they chip easily? Not just popular with new users, everyone in my family who owns a Shun has admitted they've chipped it, but that only seems to increase their brand loyalty.

I think it's likely that Shun pushes the limits of edge thinness to compete against other brands when being compared in stores, even though they know it will chip very quickly at home. They offer their sharpening service to correct this, forcing the consumer to use their old knives again while waiting. When they get the Shun back, it's much thicker behind the edge than when it was purchased, but since they're only comparing it to their old knives at home, it still feels like a vast improvement.

The consumer is satisfied because they perceive they purchased something far superior to other knives in the store, but day-to-day they really just want a knife they can abuse like they normally do. So I believe their mediocre sharpening service is a feature not a bug, effectively allowing Shun to give the consumer two different knives: the one they want to buy, and the one they want to use.

All of this plays into a narrative that flatters the consumer. They explain the initial chipping as a result of them being accustomed to thick western knives, praise Shun for their free sharpening service, and believe the robustness of the thicker sharpened knife is due to them becoming more careful and skilled with high-end knives. They end up believing that this purchase transformed them into better knife users, and the whole experience creates a strong brand loyalty.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

It's cuz Alton Brown said so.

 

[ian]

Heh I like the psychology here, but you may be overthinking things. I'm not sure how much the average buyer cares about the sharpening service, although I'm sure some do. Back when I was using Shuns, I wasn't even aware I could do that, and anyway it's a big pain to mail your knives out. I would imagine it's more about the fact that you see the knives and their ads everywhere, and that the aesthetics are distinctive. They look very fancy to non knife nerds: just enough of that exotic looking Japanese feel (e.g. the D handle), but still approachable to people used to Western style profiles. Plus, the damascus pops*. Mac knives look boring in comparison. I've also heard that some people think the Asian cook's knife is amazing.




*

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

That's an interesting story. I have a friend whose Shun became very dull after maybe half a year, and she literally told me it's because she wasn't careful enough to keep it sharp. She blamed herself for it not the knife. Even after I kept saying to her that every knife needs sharpening once a while. I almost couldn't understand what Williams Sonoma did to her to let her believe her Shun could be sharp forever if she's careful enough.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Heh I like the psychology here, but you may be overthinking things.

More likely just over-generalizing. This is really how it works for the Shun fans in my family, but you're right it probably doesn't apply to most users

 

[Delat]

I think Shuns are popular just due to marketing and looks. Then when they get chipped nobody wants to admit their $200 knife sucks so they either blame it on misuse (which a lot probably is, me included) or they just get it repaired (or leave it in a drawer) and carry on.

I took another look at mine the other day (premiere line, I think) and the f&f is really nice. The handle's held up really well and everything in flush and smooth. It's really not a bad knife, it's just that there are better options for the money depending on what you value in a knife.

 

[tostadas]

Shun is also sold at the big department stores (alongside Global, Henckels, and Wusthof), so it's widely accessible to the American public. Most people out there won't go diving into hobbyist forums to find themselves a new kitchen tool.

 

[ModRQC]

While I mostly agree with @ian ... I prefer @spaceconvoy delve into the psychology of Shun's pride. And I'm guessing that if free sharpening service figures into it it's because in his experience with said friends and family, many of them indeed used it.

 

[Rangen]

Shuns are pretty, prettier than the mass market competition. I have one, a Chinese cleaver in "Damascus." I hate everything about it -- the excessively curved edge profile, the slippery handle, and the extraordinary difficulty in getting any sort of feel on the stones when trying to sharpen it. Sure looks nice, though.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Once upon a time I was working closely with the Shun people. The goal was to look cooler and more high tech Japanese than old fashion Henckels and Wusthof. Seems they did a pretty good job of that. I sent a co-worker pretty much a full set of the early Shuns we had for evaluation. I told her I would resharpen them when she needed it. A couple of of years later she sent them back with broken points and major chips in the edges. I could fix that but why did it happen? Seems her husband used them for anything and everything at home, cutting wire, digging up weeds, you name it. So a few years later she asked me for advice on replacing them (I didn't ask why). I gave her my advice and then asked a few months later what she settled on. More Shun! Their marketing people are good!

 

[Barmoley]

When shun first became popular in the US, they were better than most other easily available brands. In addition they used the cobalt super steel and offered free resharpening. I used them and told everyone who would listen that they were better than the rest. I never actually sent them for sharpening as it was annoying, but I also couldn’t solve the chipping no matter what I did. Thickening the edge helped a lot, but defeated the purpose of having them. Shuns brought me to this crazy hobby, so depending on how I feel on a particular day they are either great or awful. Many of my friends still have them and I have to sharpen them, so I am still paying…… To be fair some of the models are not all bad, but there are much better knives in this price range these days.

 

[btbyrd]

Do Shuns really chip so easily? Is the heat treatment on Shuns really that bad? Are the grinds truly too thin? Or is the problem instead user error on a massive scale? I'm inclined to give Shun the benefit of the doubt and think that many excellent knives with good HT would end up chipped in the vast majority of home kitchens. People are idiots and bad cooks. They have poor knife skills, zero sharpening ability, and cut on glass cutting boards. The public is a disaster. Pearls before swine.

I think Shun is popular because it's widely distributed and is basically the only Japanese brand available in mass market stores besides Global. If someone is in the market for some new kitchen knives and want something that stands apart from Wusthof and Henckels and other big European manufacturers, they don't have a lot of options off the shelf. So if they want to buy a Jknife that they can try out and hold in their hand at Williams Sonoma or Sur La Table or even Bed Bath and Beyond, it'll be Shun. And if they end up on the internet, they'll end up with Dalstrong (or, God forbid, something like Kamikoto or some other such scam).

Anyway, I don't think it's a huge mystery why they're popular. They're decent knives that are widely available and offer something different from Western knives and are arguably more aesthetically appealing than Global knives are.

 

[ian]

Do Shuns really chip so easily? Is the heat treatment on Shuns really that bad? Are the grinds truly too thin? Or is the problem instead user error on a massive scale?

I never had this experience either. Used them for years without chipping. I sharpen them from time to time for clients, and they’re just fine, and no more chipped than any other knives I get. So idk. Apparently others have different experiences

 

[Barmoley]

Do Shuns really chip so easily? Is the heat treatment on Shuns really that bad? Are the grinds truly too thin? Or is the problem instead user error on a massive scale? I'm inclined to give Shun the benefit of the doubt and think that many excellent knives with good HT would end up chipped in the vast majority of home kitchens. People are idiots and bad cooks. They have poor knife skills, zero sharpening ability, and cut on glass cutting boards. The public is a disaster. Pearls before swine.

Yes, but shuns are pretty bad as far as chipping is concerned. Be it thin, burnt edges, bad heat treat inappropriate steel, combination of all these or whatever else, but I haven't yet seen a shun that hasn't chipped no matter the user. I take it back, their SG2 blades are much better, so I haven't seen their vg10 blades that haven't chipped. I also thought that users are the problem, so I've tried really tried, they chip. multiple versions over multiple years and models. I can't be careful enough with them not to chip them. I think even if it is possible not to chip them, it is too much to ask for anyone to be this careful.

When I say chipping I don't mean huge chips, but micro chipping sooner or later all over the edge. All the shuns I've sharpened for others were more chipped than other knives

 

[Rangen]

My Shun has not chipped at all. Apparently the secret is to never use it.

 

[stringer]

My first Japanese knife was a Shun classic. I bought it in probably 2006 on sale at Williams and Sonoma for about $100. I used it in professional kitchens and beat the snot out of for 8 or 10 years. Split a million lobsters with it and then sold it on eBay for about $100. Love them or hate them. Nothing holds its value like a Shun.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

I've used multiple Shuns including 1 VG10 and several SG2s. None of them chipped during normal use except one incident when I used the Shun Fuji SG2 to cut a very hard baguette for fun, and of course the knife became a saw. I like their SG2 steel more than their VG10 because it's easier to sharpen (in my limited experience). Some of their lines are really thin bte, as thin as some popular Sakai lasers (0.15 mm right above the edge). They will chip if users use without care, but so will most knives we love on this forum.

 

[kpham12]

From what I’ve seen, for a lot of people, Shun is their first upgrade from a junk knife or maybe a Wusthof or something similar, so they just use it like one. A lot of Shuns have that high tip German profile so people will rock chop with bad technique on crappy cutting boards, they’ll cut into bones and other hard things and throw it into the sink or dishwasher when they’re done. All things softer, thicker knives can survive, but not a Shun. I think that contributes a lot to the chipping, besides the HT.

 

[EShin]

With the holidays coming up I've been thinking about why Shuns are so popular among the average American foodie home cook (ie, my family), and I've developed the following theory, based on two important principles:

- Consumers only pay close attention to details when they're considering a purchase

- Consumers are easily flattered and they love buying stuff that makes them feel more skilled

The paradox I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while now is: why are Shuns so popular even though they chip easily? Not just popular with new users, everyone in my family who owns a Shun has admitted they've chipped it, but that only seems to increase their brand loyalty.

I think it's likely that Shun pushes the limits of edge thinness to compete against other brands when being compared in stores, even though they know it will chip very quickly at home. They offer their sharpening service to correct this, forcing the consumer to use their old knives again while waiting. When they get the Shun back, it's much thicker behind the edge than when it was purchased, but since they're only comparing it to their old knives at home, it still feels like a vast improvement.

The consumer is satisfied because they perceive they purchased something far superior to other knives in the store, but day-to-day they really just want a knife they can abuse like they normally do. So I believe their mediocre sharpening service is a feature not a bug, effectively allowing Shun to give the consumer two different knives: the one they want to buy, and the one they want to use.

All of this plays into a narrative that flatters the consumer. They explain the initial chipping as a result of them being accustomed to thick western knives, praise Shun for their free sharpening service, and believe the robustness of the thicker sharpened knife is due to them becoming more careful and skilled with high-end knives. They end up believing that this purchase transformed them into better knife users, and the whole experience creates a strong brand loyalty.

Very interesting thoughts. A few years ago, I got to talk to the CEO of KAI/Shun for a bit and I was basically wondering about the same, because the products have become somewhat popular here in Japan, too. From what I gathered, their concept and strategy actually resembles your thinking quite closely.

The knives they had been making (or Japanese knives generally) offer a more refined, thinner and longer lasting edge than German or French knives. The downside is that they will chip more easily but also that more care needs to be taken of the knife in general, so western knives were becoming more popular in Japan, too. They thought about how to develop a knife that retains the great cutting experience but is as convenient as Western knives. What they came up with is the cobalt super steel as described by @Barmoley and a kind of hybrid handle, but they also realised that it's impossible to resolve the problem with chipping completely, so that's why they came up with the sharpening service. So they could now offer a knife that outperforms Western knives when tested in stores (or in tests of consumer magazines), be easy to use and also come with a direct sharpening service (that feels very easily accessible). Additionally, it offers the aesthetics of Japanese sword making or Samurai tradition with a modern touch.

But now we're back at the initial problem, namely that other products probably offer better value. So perhaps it isn't surprising that he was talking mostly about sales and marketing. First, they were quicker than other brands in expanding overseas. Second, they have the capacity to produce enough knives so they can be stocked in department stores etc. Third and perhaps most importantly, their strategy was to build trust by having famous Western and Japanese chefs advertising for them.

So people hear about the superior performance of these knives by famous chefs and actually get to feel it when they try them out. The sharpening service then offers additional security, as does good availability, so that people think they can get a real Japanese knife that is almost as convenient as Western knives, and that's what Shun themselves would claim. In other words, people trust the brand and they "know" it performs very well because they compared it in the store, saw tests in consumer magazines and famous chefs use it.

Of course, if they owned several good knives people would realise that the Shun knives require more maintenance than they think and that other Japanese knives are not much more inconvenient.

 

[Tapio]

My first nakiri was a Shun Classic VG-Max (mint second hand). I used it every day and never had any chipping problems. I really liked the shape, cutting performance and edge retention of that knife. Years later I got a mishandled Shun Pro Classic yanagiba. The guy who sold the knife to me was a chef in the most expensive restaurant of my country. He had made the secondary bevel way too big. It took tons of elbow grease and a substantial part of my fastest cutting coarse stone to repair the geometry. That knife has performed very well after I got it back in shape.

I am really surprised to hear how all Shuns should have micro chipping problems. I never had any of that.

 

[Michi]

Part of the problem is the VG-10, I think. It's not my favourite steel, prone to chipping. The one VG-10 knife I had (a Kurosaki), I sold again fairly quickly because the endless "ping" sounds I'd get from the blade if I'd torque it ever so slightly made me nervous. (That was a laser though, very thin behind the edge.)

I have one Shun in my set, a 210 mm Hiro (SG-2 steel). That's a good knife, IMO. Heavy, not quite a workhorse, and not a laser. Somewhere in the middle. Profile is not as rounded as a Wüsthof, and not as flat as many other gyutos. I like it a lot. Stays sharp for a long time, can take some abuse, and generally just works.

I'm not a fan boy. But, TBH, when you put a Shun or a Myabi next to a Wüsthof or Zwilling, the performance difference is big enough to win people over. Yes, they are too expensive for what they are. But they are not bad knives, and better knives than what you will find in 99% of all households.

 

[chefwp]

They somehow mastered the distribution channel aspect of marketing more so than the competition. If I remember correctly, and it has been a while since I was in front of a knife case, in major dept stores they are portrayed as the 'top of the knife pyramid.' Just being in all the major stores is half the battle, but look at how they are displayed with the competition, as the pinnacle of what the consumer has available. On the bottom is something like Calphalon or Cuisinart knives, Wusthof and Henkels take the middle, and Shun is on top, or something like that...
Other than that I've never held one in my hands. How does Shun compare to Miyabi (also never used, but I imagine them being very similar)? How about Yaxell (I briefly owned a couple Ys, they were ok, still have a petty, wife still a bit miffed I sold them, as she had adopted them)?

 

[BoSharpens]

chefwp asked "How does Shun compare to Miyabi (also never used, but I imagine them being very similar)?"

Having sharpened 100s of Shuns (& I use a Shun Santoku), and dozens of Miyabis, I find the metal/heat treat on the MIyabi incosistent (meaning bad on average.) The edges are often so hard &/or weak that they chip easily & then have stringy fiber like flakes of the actual edge coming off the edge during finishing with fine grits.

I also see some variable base metal thickness along near the edge once in awhile, indicating a lack of control in forging the blades or inspection afterwards where the blade should have been a reject.

I would buy a Shun over the Miyabi any day. I've used a few and sharpened a dozen or so Japanese Kramers and must say, I would prefer the Kramer over all the rest.

My Shun Santoku is well over 5 years old and I've never chipped it, but I took one look at it when I took it out of the Christmas wrapping and understood that thin edge was NEVER going to take a blow without a chip occurring. I use it only for fine slicing on a softer cutting board and it does its job well & is easy to hand hone in the kitchen back razor sharp.

If I buy another Japanese knife it is likely to be a Kramer Nakiri with the larger handle which fits my hand better.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

They somehow mastered the distribution channel aspect of marketing more so than the competition. If I remember correctly, and it has been a while since I was in front of a knife case, in major dept stores they are portrayed as the 'top of the knife pyramid.' Just being in all the major stores is half the battle, but look at how they are displayed with the competition, as the pinnacle of what the consumer has available. On the bottom is something like Calphalon or Cuisinart knives, Wusthof and Henkels take the middle, and Shun is on top, or something like that...
Other than that I've never held one in my hands. How does Shun compare to Miyabi (also never used, but I imagine them being very similar)? How about Yaxell (I briefly owned a couple Ys, they were ok, still have a petty, wife still a bit miffed I sold them, as she had adopted them)?

Shuns thinner than Miyabis behind the edge. Shuns edge width much more consistent than Miyabis’. Shuns balanced better than Miyabis (butt heavy). I think overall Shun cuts better.