single bevel sharpening

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@noj
Because of this thread I took my usuba out of the project box. Thank you :)

So far it looks like I am able get the ura straight again. Have to recheck it today with less pressure.
 
natto said:
I appreciate your offer and this kind forum.

Years ago I got stuck with my first and only single bevel. Thought about this and that or buying another one. But the initial idea was to learn single bevel sharpening. So I'ld have been disappointed with having to send it out to repair.
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I completely understand that feeling.. but I also know just how difficult it can be to learn when the knife isn't straight. I figured that I could help get it ready for a proper learning experience.
 
Forty Ounce sharpened it for me, and provided some good feedback. Apparently, the thinning I did was pretty good, but the microbevel I used wasn't big enough, leaving the edge way too thin.

I was surprised videos don't seem to cover this aspect (much), or the balance between work on the wide bevel vs microbevel.

Thanks Forty Ounce, and everyone for all the help.
 
That's good news.

All of life is a learning experience I've found, and I expect to screw things up the first time I do something. Sounds like you got very close on the first try!
 
Sure. I still haven't used or modified the knife. Sorry if my pictures aren't great, it's all my phone does. One photo hopefully shows the micro bevel Forty Ounce added. The other shows the overall finish. There are scratches in the area where the hagane and jigane meet that may indicate a low spot. I don't know if this came from the maker, or perhaps swarf buildup when I was working on it.

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Thanks. It’s been super interesting to follow the progress of your project. I’ve been thinning my double-bevel gyuto and sujihiki recently and getting more confident about returning to the single-bevels. I’m learning to read the convex profile of the bevel by tilting the edge under the light so the reflection tells the curve. I know the other method is horizontal blinds but I don’t have those handy. Under the microscope, though, quite a lot is visible. That and calipers and vaguely obscene pinching of behinds. Behind the edge, that is.
 
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Im also attempting to polish my single bevel. But i still got messy in the middle of the kireha and a big low spot right near the tip. Question: i know a small microbevel helps the integrity of the edge but a yanagi is used unlike a gyuto where its not slamming too much on the board. What are the common guidelines?
 

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ethompson said:
Avoid adding the micro-bevel unless it starts to chip on you. With a good board and proper use chipping shouldn’t be an issue at a “zero edge.”
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Sweet. However is too thin an issue for zero grind? I felt mine was a tad thin. How do i tell?



This is the finish from your shiro suita btw!
 
If it matters, my blade would not "take" a zero grind. By that, I mean the edge was full of micro-chips. I tried different stones, worked both the bevel and ura, used a very light pressure, etc. I repeated the whole process from a medium grit multiple times. It's not exactly a fair comparison, but none of my double bevel knives have this problem.
 
ahhactive said:
Im also attempting to polish my single bevel. But i still got messy in the middle of the kireha and a big low spot right near the tip. Question: i know a small microbevel helps the integrity of the edge but a yanagi is used unlike a gyuto where its not slamming too much on the board. What are the common guidelines?
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Is that a Byakko?

That’s not a low spot, that’s just slight convexity and you not following the radius of the upward curve. You can follow it by adjusting your finger placement. You may also need to raise your right hand slightly just like when doing the tips of gyutos.

Many yanagi come with a secondary bevel out of the box. That’s why you do honbazuke. A small microbevel can help with retention and chippy blades and it also speeds up touch ups when you got work to do and have absolutely no time to whip out the stones. Touch up your microbevel on the finisher and go. The downside is that you can only do that so often before the bevel fattens up and you have to do a serious sharpening session.

OP‘s Mukimono was also fine, as demonstrated by a competent sharpener. They’re notoriously hard to sharpen, up there with Kama usuba. I have messed up one as well, didn’t post that on any forum though. Getting a mukimono when you have no idea what you’re doing is a great recipe for a bad time.
 
Very little of the OP's knife was fine;-)

1. came new with
- big frown
- low/high spots going to the edge
- very think behind edge
- large "micro" bevels on both sides
2. sent out to sharpener to fix
- decent job, but still way too thick behind edge
3. lot's of work on my part, with good advise here
- edge won't take a zero grind without lots of micro-chips, and
- my micro-bevel not big enough to compensate
4. Forty Ounce kindly helped
- added more micro-bevel
- may have straightened blade
 
Forty ounce did a great job. I very much believe he could do a great job because the knife was fundamentally solid. Crisp shinogi indicating no low spots on the hira and I have yet to see a wavy back on a nishimura grind.

Maybe you need another one, forged and ground by a completely different set of craftsmen. Getting for example a Masamoto KS one would put things into perspective. Owning and sharpening different knives of each type gave me a frame of reference and that’s really the most important thing.
 
I am not sure you are following the story.

Did you read how it started out? The photos show some of the issues. The final pictures are the result of my work, with the exception of the work done by Forty ounce, plus another knife shop grinding off the frown, and hopefully adjusting the bevels accordingly.

I had to remove a lot of steel after the frown was ground off. It was so thick behind the edge, it not only didn't cut well, it couldn't be sharpened normally. Specifically, finger (or even finger nail) pressure couldn't get the edge to the stone.

Yes, Forty Ounce generously made a larger clean micro-bevel (and possibly straightening). This was the last step giving me trouble because the edge had micro-chips, and my small micro-bevel wasn't removing them.

For worse or better, the steel will not take a zero grind without a lot of micro-chips, no matter how gentle I was.

Sorry if I am repeating myself.
 
Lurkernomore said:
Is that a Byakko?

That’s not a low spot, that’s just slight convexity and you not following the radius of the upward curve. You can follow it by adjusting your finger placement. You may also need to raise your right hand slightly just like when doing the tips of gyutos.

Many yanagi come with a secondary bevel out of the box. That’s why you do honbazuke. A small microbevel can help with retention and chippy blades and it also speeds up touch ups when you got work to do and have absolutely no time to whip out the stones. Touch up your microbevel on the finisher and go. The downside is that you can only do that so often before the bevel fattens up and you have to do a serious sharpening session.

OP‘s Mukimono was also fine, as demonstrated by a competent sharpener. They’re notoriously hard to sharpen, up there with Kama usuba. I have messed up one as well, didn’t post that on any forum though. Getting a mukimono when you have no idea what you’re doing is a great recipe for a bad time.
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Yes this is a byakko, love it great price great product! Ok i will attempt again. Thank you for the advice!
 
This is a great thread. I just wanted to ask if anyone could clarify what a “frown” or what “frowning” refers to on a single bevelled knife.

Thank you.

Edit: I think I have an idea of what a frown looks like. But what is it caused by (removing too much steel?) and how does someone go about addressing it?
 
Wait a minute…a mukimono isn’t just a bunch of hard angles and some convexity?
 
Ethan said:
This is a great thread. I just wanted to ask if anyone could clarify what a “frown” or what “frowning” refers to on a single bevelled knife.

Thank you.

Edit: I think I have an idea of what a frown looks like. But what is it caused by (removing too much steel?) and how does someone go about addressing it?
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It refers to the profile of the edge, which is shaped like a frown. Usually happens (as above) when you sharpen over and over without sharpening all the way to the heel of the knife. This happens a lot with western knives that have finger guards, as above, since the finger guard prevents you from sharpening the heel unless you reduce it somehow, which takes a lot of work unless you’re using a belt sander or something. It also happens a lot when people use a sharpening rod, since then it’s awkward to hit the heel of the knife even if there’s no fingerguard. Less common on single bevels, probably, but it just means it wasn’t sharpened correctly.

To fix it, you have to work on the whole edge a bunch, reducing the fingerguard if present, until the edge is no longer concave in that way.
 
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ian said:
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It refers to the profile of the edge, which is shaped like a frown. Usually happens (as above) when you sharpen over and over without sharpening all the way to the heel of the knife. This happens a lot with western knives that have finger guards, as above, since the finger guard prevents you from sharpening the heel unless you reduce it somehow, which takes a lot of work unless you’re using a belt sander or something.

To fix it, you have to work on the whole edge a bunch, reducing the fingerguard if present, until the edge is no longer concave in that way.
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In my case, the knife came that way new and out of the box. Because it's a description of the shape of the edge (viewed side on like ian showed), it applies just as well to single bevel.
 
Ah, yea, forgot about the rest of this thread. That’s a bad grinding job for sure. Replace (in this case) every instance of “sharpening” by “grinding”, by the maker. The comment about it being less common on single bevel knives was just that it’s less common to see a frown come up over time because people usually sharpen better, and there’s no fingerguard.
 
noj said:
In my case, the knife came that way new and out of the box. Because it's a description of the shape of the edge (viewed side on like ian showed), it applies just as well to single bevel.
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I posted my question before seeing the image you posted of the frown itself and immediately felt like an idiot for asking lol.
 
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