Single bevel use on cooked food?

[instantramen]

What are the forum's thoughts/experiences using single bevels on cooked food compared to double bevels?

If the ura side is meant to increase performance for tasks like slicing raw fish or breaking down raw chickens, would a yanagiba's ura side prevent friction when cutting through a steak compared to a suji? Or would a single bevel honesuki outperform a petty or gyuto at breaking down a cooked chicken/turkey? Which would you reach for and why?

 

[btbyrd]

Single bevels are for raw fish. All else is vanity.

 

[user 16756]

Single bevels are for raw fish. All else is vanity.

I guess usuba, kiri, honesuki, and their variants are all gimmicks then

 

[blokey]

Why not

 

[btbyrd]

I guess usuba, kiri, honesuki, and their variants are all gimmicks then

Pretty much, yeah. Usuba is a gimmick to satisfy the vanity of monks making temple cuisine. Who among us KKFers even has a usuba? That gets used and not just stored with our rock collection?

And as for honesuki, I've seen almost none that are true single bevels with an ura. They're not so much a gimmick as a unitasker, and the benefit from the honesuki is mostly in the tip, not in the single-beveledness of it all.

/hottake

 

[blokey]

I think people are taking whole single use thing way too serious, more so than Japanese, come on, it’s your knife, Sakai blade smith society is not gonna send an assassin after you for slicing steak with Yanagiba.

 

[Greasylake]

And that's all I got to say about that

 

[Rangen]

Pretty much, yeah. Usuba is a gimmick to satisfy the vanity of monks making temple cuisine. Who among us KKFers even has a usuba? That gets used and not just stored with our rock collection?

And as for honesuki, I've seen almost none that are true single bevels with an ura. They're not so much a gimmick as a unitasker, and the benefit from the honesuki is mostly in the tip, not in the single-beveledness of it all.

/hottake

I don't use my usuba a lot, I guess, but I do use it and enjoy it. It's the best thing I've found for peeling sections of broccoli stem (my favorite raw green vegetable) with minimal wastage. I like using it to get orange peelings. And I really enjoy it for making thin slices of something like summer sausage. I have other knives that do that as well, especially wide bevel knives, but I really like the feel of using the heavy usuba for that. I think it's a delightful knife.

 

[Qapla']

For use on cooked food? They don't have a problem with it.



As for honesuki/garasuki use vis-a-vis a gyuto or a western boning-knife for poultry breakdown, I'll note that definitions of "breakdown" can vary here, as there's a difference between deboning and portioning.

Pretty much, yeah. Usuba is a gimmick to satisfy the vanity of monks making temple cuisine. Who among us KKFers even has a usuba? That gets used and not just stored with our rock collection?

I actively use my usuba.

 

[Pisau]

I knew I had a picture somewhere.... swipe/click to see the 2nd picture

These things you have to try to know OP, since we don't always cut the same things or cut the same way.

PS. All my single bevels have an urasuki including the honesuki, except for the chisel ground "usuba"

 

[Jovidah]

And as for honesuki, I've seen almost none that are true single bevels with an ura. They're not so much a gimmick as a unitasker, and the benefit from the honesuki is mostly in the tip, not in the single-beveledness of it all.

/hottake

You actually have me wondering... is there even such a thing as a 'traditional single bevel wa-honesuki'? Or are they basically just like wa-gyutos a more recent thing just because crazy westerners are asking for it. Because like you said the majority on the market is simply very asymmetric yo-versions, and I think those are the 'standard' type.

I never used a single bevel version so I don't know how they perform, but for me the main appeals of a honesuki are the tip, the profile, and the ease of sharpening. But I couldn't care less whether it's a true single bevel or not, and I doubt it'd make much of a difference.

 

[blokey]

You actually have me wondering... is there even such a thing as a 'traditional single bevel wa-honesuki'? Or are they basically just like wa-gyutos a more recent thing just because crazy westerners are asking for it. Because like you said the majority on the market is simply very asymmetric yo-versions, and I think those are the 'standard' type.

I never used a single bevel version so I don't know how they perform, but for me the main appeals of a honesuki are the tip, the profile, and the ease of sharpening. But I couldn't care less whether it's a true single bevel or not, and I doubt it'd make much of a difference.

Likely, most honesukis are like 99/1 with a flat back. But unlike single bevel wa gyuto tho, the true single bevel honesuki is pretty fun to use, they are generally heavier, thus even cleaner at severing joint. (BTW the small yo honesuki is surprisingly good at breaking down small fish)

 

[Ochazuke]

Pretty much, yeah. Usuba is a gimmick to satisfy the vanity of monks making temple cuisine. Who among us KKFers even has a usuba? That gets used and not just stored with our rock collection?

And as for honesuki, I've seen almost none that are true single bevels with an ura. They're not so much a gimmick as a unitasker, and the benefit from the honesuki is mostly in the tip, not in the single-beveledness of it all.

/hottake

Oof. I use my usuba regularly. I even have two.

There are plenty of folks in Japan who use an usuba for more than just katsuramuki or making kaiseki or shojin ryori. For people who grew up using Japanese single bevels, they’re very useful and not single purpose or gimmicky at all.It’s also a generational thing I think. Most of the grannies I grew up had either an usuba or nakiri along with a small bunka or petty. And that was pretty much it. These days the younger folks usually just have 1 small gyuto or santoku.

But look at it from this perspective: if you have a bunch of foreigners who don’t really cook (and if they do, who don’t cook the kind of food of the knife’s culture) what are you going to sell them? It’s 100% true that a gyuto is more robust and multi-purpose. It’s also 100% true that a gyuto can’t do what an usuba does. There’s also the factor that for the longest time, non-Japanese people didn’t know how to sharpen single bevel knives and use totally different cutting techniques. Of all the single bevels, it’s the easiest to wreck. That’s why the de facto position for so long has been “don’t buy an usuba, it only does a few jobs.” Because for it was almost guaranteed that selling a non-Japanese person an usuba would result in it either being damaged or unused. For the most part, it’s been a self-fulfilling prophecy (as evidenced by your own attitude). I admit, I’ve steered plenty of people away from them using this same logic.

But in his lauded book Japanese Cooking, Shizuo Tsuji lists an usuba as the one knife to buy if you’re going to buy a knife from Japan. That’s because he considers it the one knife that doesn’t have a western equivalent and one that is useful in Japanese cooking (again not just the fancy stuff).

It’s not that the usuba is a gimmick. It’s that it’s designed for Japanese food and cooking techniques. KKF is probably the largest repository of English language info on Japanese knives, sharpening, and techniques, but it seems like less than 1% of the active members on here are Japanese chefs. That’s probably why KKF and by proxy the rest of the knife world got this opinion.

 

[Ochazuke]

Also op, slice whatever you want with your yanagiba

 

[blokey]

Oof. I use my usuba regularly. I even have two.

There are plenty of folks in Japan who use an usuba for more than just katsuramuki or making kaiseki or shojin ryori. For people who grew up using Japanese single bevels, they’re very useful and not single purpose or gimmicky at all.It’s also a generational thing I think. Most of the grannies I grew up had either an usuba or nakiri along with a small bunka or petty. And that was pretty much it. These days the younger folks usually just have 1 small gyuto or santoku.

But look at it from this perspective: if you have a bunch of foreigners who don’t really cook (and if they do, who don’t cook the kind of food of the knife’s culture) what are you going to sell them? It’s 100% true that a gyuto is more robust and multi-purpose. It’s also 100% true that a gyuto can’t do what an usuba does. There’s also the factor that for the longest time, non-Japanese people didn’t know how to sharpen single bevel knives and use totally different cutting techniques. Of all the single bevels, it’s the easiest to wreck. That’s why the de facto position for so long has been “don’t buy an usuba, it only does a few jobs.” Because for it was almost guaranteed that selling a non-Japanese person an usuba would result in it either being damaged or unused. For the most part, it’s been a self-fulfilling prophecy (as evidenced by your own attitude). I admit, I’ve steered plenty of people away from them using this same logic.

But in his lauded book Japanese Cooking, Shizuo Tsuji lists an usuba as the one knife to buy if you’re going to buy a knife from Japan. That’s because he considers it the one knife that doesn’t have a western equivalent and one that is useful in Japanese cooking (again not just the fancy stuff).

It’s not that the usuba is a gimmick. It’s that it’s designed for Japanese food and cooking techniques. KKF is probably the largest repository of English language info on Japanese knives, sharpening, and techniques, but it seems like less than 1% of the active members on here are Japanese chefs. That’s probably why KKF and by proxy the rest of the knife world got this opinion.

Thanks for sharing us with your experience!

I’m planning to buy a Usuba from Tsukiji Aritsugu via proxy, where I’m in China right now doesn’t have any Usuba that I can try my hands on so I might as well just buy from Japan directly. Tsukiji Masamoto and Aritsugu both seems very well priced, tho Sugimoto seems to be on par with Masamoto Honshoten pricing. if possible, do you have any recommendations for a entry level Usuba from Japan?

 

[Pie]

I fear some crusts on long cooked meats vs my yanagi’s thin edge. The steering also kinda sucks through roasts.

I also have enough double bevel slicer length knives to not have to use a single bevel..

 

[btbyrd]

Those weren't my true feelings about the usuba, but my post was meant to reflect some of my ambivalence about the utility of single beveled knives outside of Japanese cuisine and its techniques. I'm a student of Japanese cooking but I don't know the culture or the language well enough to make general statements. With that big grain of salt in place, I have to say that of all the (many) Japanese language YouTube videos I've seen, the usuba almost never comes out for home cooks (or chefs demoing recipes for home cooks). I see the nakiri and santoku a lot. I see low end honesukis a lot. And obviously I see the deba and yanagiba quite frequently, at least when the fish comes out. But the usuba doesn't seem to come out unless I'm watching a pro do something in their own kitchen. And then it's usually some super specific Japanese technique like katsuramuki and ken/needle cuts.

I think usuba are cool and interesting and I want one, but I do think their utility is very limited in a non-Japanese kitchen. Granted, it's more useful than a unagisaki or something would be. But unless you're preparing Japanese food (and also using somewhat advanced knife skills that even most Japanese cooking YouTube personalities seem to lack) it might not be super useful. It might sit in its box like that Spiralizer you bought that time you went low carb and used it five times before letting it languish on the shelf. Or at least, that's the worry that I'd have with a usuba.

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm happy to use the Yanagiba on smaller size cooked and uncooked meat, yes it steers and the 12k finish may need redoing more often but hey....it's a utensil right?

I gave the Usuba to my best friend, while he may be abusing it sharpening it on the one stone I gave him he does intuitively know when to use it when cooking.

 

[Rangen]

Those weren't my true feelings about the usuba, but my post was meant to reflect some of my ambivalence about the utility of single beveled knives outside of Japanese cuisine and its techniques. I'm a student of Japanese cooking but I don't know the culture or the language well enough to make general statements. With that big grain of salt in place, I have to say that of all the (many) Japanese language YouTube videos I've seen, the usuba almost never comes out for home cooks (or chefs demoing recipes for home cooks). I see the nakiri and santoku a lot. I see low end honesukis a lot. And obviously I see the deba and yanagiba quite frequently, at least when the fish comes out. But the usuba doesn't seem to come out unless I'm watching a pro do something in their own kitchen. And then it's usually some super specific Japanese technique like katsuramuki and ken/needle cuts.

I think usuba are cool and interesting and I want one, but I do think their utility is very limited in a non-Japanese kitchen. Granted, it's more useful than a unagisaki or something would be. But unless you're preparing Japanese food (and also using somewhat advanced knife skills that even most Japanese cooking YouTube personalities seem to lack) it might not be super useful. It might sit in its box like that Spiralizer you bought that time you went low carb and used it five times before letting it languish on the shelf. Or at least, that's the worry that I'd have with a usuba.

If you get one, I hope you will report on the experience. I find mine irresistibly charming, and I look for excuses to use it, which is pretty much any time I want to shave off a thin slice of something (except carrots; they taper, and that has defeated my efforts so far). I'm curious how it would do on a Spanish ham.

Some part of the fascination is due to the strong similarity of the profile to a kamisori, my primary shaving instrument. Another part is that I prefer heavy knives, apparently, and a heavy knife that makes thin shavings really draws me in.

 

[kpham12]

Single bevel garasuki at work. I believe this is the Sakai Takayuki one forged by Togashi. Had a chance to handle one, they’re a lot thinner right behind the edge than the more utilitarian double bevel ones like Masahiro and Misono. You can get them a lot sharper than the double bevel ones, but they’re more fragile, gotta be very precise near bones and between joints to avoid damaging the edge. Toyama makes a sweet one too.

 

[Qifgt]

Oof. I use my usuba regularly. I even have two.

There are plenty of folks in Japan who use an usuba for more than just katsuramuki or making kaiseki or shojin ryori. For people who grew up using Japanese single bevels, they’re very useful and not single purpose or gimmicky at all.It’s also a generational thing I think. Most of the grannies I grew up had either an usuba or nakiri along with a small bunka or petty. And that was pretty much it. These days the younger folks usually just have 1 small gyuto or santoku.

But look at it from this perspective: if you have a bunch of foreigners who don’t really cook (and if they do, who don’t cook the kind of food of the knife’s culture) what are you going to sell them? It’s 100% true that a gyuto is more robust and multi-purpose. It’s also 100% true that a gyuto can’t do what an usuba does. There’s also the factor that for the longest time, non-Japanese people didn’t know how to sharpen single bevel knives and use totally different cutting techniques. Of all the single bevels, it’s the easiest to wreck. That’s why the de facto position for so long has been “don’t buy an usuba, it only does a few jobs.” Because for it was almost guaranteed that selling a non-Japanese person an usuba would result in it either being damaged or unused. For the most part, it’s been a self-fulfilling prophecy (as evidenced by your own attitude). I admit, I’ve steered plenty of people away from them using this same logic.

But in his lauded book Japanese Cooking, Shizuo Tsuji lists an usuba as the one knife to buy if you’re going to buy a knife from Japan. That’s because he considers it the one knife that doesn’t have a western equivalent and one that is useful in Japanese cooking (again not just the fancy stuff).

It’s not that the usuba is a gimmick. It’s that it’s designed for Japanese food and cooking techniques. KKF is probably the largest repository of English language info on Japanese knives, sharpening, and techniques, but it seems like less than 1% of the active members on here are Japanese chefs. That’s probably why KKF and by proxy the rest of the knife world got this opinion.

What is name of Shizuo Tsuji book? Thanks for help

 

[Rangen]

What is name of Shizuo Tsuji book? Thanks for help

Japanese Cooking: A Simple Art

 

[coxhaus]

Make it simple and use something like this.

 

[Qifgt]

Japanese Cooking: A Simple Art

Thank u ,Sir!