What next / does this gyuto exist?

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timebard

timebard

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While there's a million great knives I haven't tried yet, I'm starting to feel like I'm deep enough into the rabbit hole to have an idea of what I like, and more interested in honing in on a couple knives that fit me perfectly than cycling through a bunch that don't.

With that goal in mind, does anyone have suggestions on what (short of going custom) matches this description?

-Roughly 225-230x52
-Relatively thick spine over the heel (ideally 4mm+) with good distal taper
-Balance point about +25mm (basically right at or just a hair ahead of pinch grip--a more forward-balanced knife would just need a rehandle, I guess)
-Profile like Wakui (flat but not quite as dead-flat as Yoshikane)
-Thin behind the edge high grind like Yoshikane - maybe a little more convexity but I'd prioritize cutting feel over food release
-Steel doesn't matter too much - any good semi-stainless or carbon would be fine. Better retention than your average white #2 would be nice but I'd rather it feel good on the stones than hold an edge for eons
- Cladding/finish doesn't matter

It seems like Kono Fuji or other Y Tanaka 240s would come sort of close to this, but maybe are thinner than what I'm after? I recall hearing Jon had Kochis in 225 at one point that might fit the bill? Anything else I should be looking at?
 
The 225 Gengetsu being talked about on another thread would nail this - except height. Put your "Yes" in now (prob won't be immediate gratification)
 
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Kochi is such a great knife. That’s a difficult knife to beat at most price points if you can find the length you want. I haven’t tried a Wat yet but assuming they are very similar to Toyama, it’s another knife that will likely climb to the top of your favorites quickly. It might not be as flat as you want but Marco also does a great high-performing workhorse grind.
 
Not that it's particularly useful to hear, but that does a decent job of describing my 240 Kato. It's slightly shorter, at 49.5mm, but 231 length, over 4mm tapering down to less than 1 2cm from the tip, high convexity, perfect grind. Obviously good luck getting one of those.

Mutsumi Hinoura AS is a lot more available and a lot more reasonable. Lovely nashiji finish, stainless clad AS steel for ease of care and decent edge retention, 4mm-ish spine at heel, good taper, tip still slaughters onions. The 240 measures nearly 250 along the blade, so I imagine that the 210 should approach 220mm.

If you follow some of the custom makers out there, a number do workhorse grinds and post them to their stores from time to time. Just have to watch the mailing lists and be ready to click fast.
 
timebard said:
While there's a million great knives I haven't tried yet, I'm starting to feel like I'm deep enough into the rabbit hole to have an idea of what I like, and more interested in honing in on a couple knives that fit me perfectly than cycling through a bunch that don't.

With that goal in mind, does anyone have suggestions on what (short of going custom) matches this description?

-Roughly 225-230x52
-Relatively thick spine over the heel (ideally 4mm+) with good distal taper
-Balance point about +25mm (basically right at or just a hair ahead of pinch grip--a more forward-balanced knife would just need a rehandle, I guess)
-Profile like Wakui (flat but not quite as dead-flat as Yoshikane)
-Thin behind the edge high grind like Yoshikane - maybe a little more convexity but I'd prioritize cutting feel over food release
-Steel doesn't matter too much - any good semi-stainless or carbon would be fine. Better retention than your average white #2 would be nice but I'd rather it feel good on the stones than hold an edge for eons
- Cladding/finish doesn't matter

It seems like Kono Fuji or other Y Tanaka 240s would come sort of close to this, but maybe are thinner than what I'm after? I recall hearing Jon had Kochis in 225 at one point that might fit the bill? Anything else I should be looking at?
Click to expand...

How do you arrive at your ideal specifications? Honest question. I'm always fascinated to hear how other knife collectors deduce what's in their wheelhouse.

For instance, which 225-230x52 knives have you tried that makes them preferred size parameters? Have you tried a Wakui and Yoshikane that tells you the Yoshi is too flat?

Personally, 225 x 52 are my preferred size—of which I have several—a 225 Raquin, 225 Tsourkan WH, 225 Kippington WP, 225 Heiji. The Raquin and Kip have the most pronounced distal.

The 225 Kochi you speak of was a special order from what I remember. Kochis are wonderful knives.

I knife brand you should have on your radar is Migoto—I have the white 1, length is 228mm, height about 52. Very well made gyuto.

Takada is an excellent gyuto, 225-ish length, albeit might not be tall at enough for you. Stellar knife really.

Good luck in your search!
 
With such detailed specs, you should talk to a custom maker.

The combo of extreme distal taper and taller knife (52mm+ at the heel) is probably easier to get from a western knife smith than a Japanese one.
 
DitmasPork said:
How do you arrive at your ideal specifications? Honest question. I'm always fascinated to hear how other knife collectors deduce what's in their wheelhouse.

For instance, which 225-230x52 knives have you tried that makes them preferred size parameters? Have you tried a Wakui and Yoshikane that tells you the Yoshi is too flat?

Personally, 225 x 52 are my preferred size—of which I have several—a 225 Raquin, 225 Tsourkan WH, 225 Kippington WP, 225 Heiji. The Raquin and Kip have the most pronounced distal.

The 225 Kochi you speak of was a special order from what I remember. Kochis are wonderful knives.

I knife brand you should have on your radar is Migoto—I have the white 1, length is 228mm, height about 52. Very well made gyuto.

Takada is an excellent gyuto, 225-ish length, albeit might not be tall at enough for you. Stellar knife really.

Good luck in your search!
Click to expand...

Legit question--let's call it more of a hunch than a known quantity, but it is an educated hunch. What I can say is that gyutos that have approached that range from either end (220 Maz, 235 Kono GS+) have felt like more useful, "sweet spot" sizes for a daily driver than my 210s and 240s. Similarly, my knives with ~50mm heels feel a little short, but my Toyama at 54mm is a bit much. The profile and grind preferences are from direct experience--my Wakui has IMO a pretty perfect profile for how I use a gyuto and my Yoshi is my best cutter (but lacks heft/authority as well as height). I know there's more nuances in practice to making the perfect knife than "throw the best parts of five knives in a blender" but ya gotta start somewhere right?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions folks! My search for the perfect blade got a bit derailed by the Kipp that showed up on BST but I'll be coming back to this once I let some other stuff go... The Hinoura, Takada, and Migoto suggestions are useful if I don't go the custom route.

(And if anyone's got one of those mythical Kochi 225s collecting dust let me know!)
 
I think you would like Wat and Kochi.
I'd recommend Shihan and HSCIII as good collaborators who can do what you want. Draw the profile you want and see if one of them can make it (they probably can). Coming from another 225/230 fan.
 
timebard said:
Legit question--let's call it more of a hunch than a known quantity, but it is an educated hunch. What I can say is that gyutos that have approached that range from either end (220 Maz, 235 Kono GS+) have felt like more useful, "sweet spot" sizes for a daily driver than my 210s and 240s. Similarly, my knives with ~50mm heels feel a little short, but my Toyama at 54mm is a bit much. The profile and grind preferences are from direct experience--my Wakui has IMO a pretty perfect profile for how I use a gyuto and my Yoshi is my best cutter (but lacks heft/authority as well as height). I know there's more nuances in practice to making the perfect knife than "throw the best parts of five knives in a blender" but ya gotta start somewhere right?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions folks! My search for the perfect blade got a bit derailed by the Kipp that showed up on BST but I'll be coming back to this once I let some other stuff go... The Hinoura, Takada, and Migoto suggestions are useful if I don't go the custom route.

(And if anyone's got one of those mythical Kochi 225s collecting dust let me know!)
Click to expand...
timebard said:
Legit question--let's call it more of a hunch than a known quantity, but it is an educated hunch. What I can say is that gyutos that have approached that range from either end (220 Maz, 235 Kono GS+) have felt like more useful, "sweet spot" sizes for a daily driver than my 210s and 240s. Similarly, my knives with ~50mm heels feel a little short, but my Toyama at 54mm is a bit much. The profile and grind preferences are from direct experience--my Wakui has IMO a pretty perfect profile for how I use a gyuto and my Yoshi is my best cutter (but lacks heft/authority as well as height). I know there's more nuances in practice to making the perfect knife than "throw the best parts of five knives in a blender" but ya gotta start somewhere right?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions folks! My search for the perfect blade got a bit derailed by the Kipp that showed up on BST but I'll be coming back to this once I let some other stuff go... The Hinoura, Takada, and Migoto suggestions are useful if I don't go the custom route.

(And if anyone's got one of those mythical Kochi 225s collecting dust let me know!)
Click to expand...

What's fascinating about gyutos (and other shapes of course) is the range of distinctive characteristics each can have from maker to maker—and even within the work of a single maker. For example, consider Mazaki's earlier bullnose-esque gyutos with current iterations.

Size is a good initial parameter—my sweet spot leans towards 225mm, give or take 10mm. However, length/height is only one aspect—there's weight, profile, grind type, steel, handle, etc. All contribute to the overall feel and performance. Of my 225s—the 225 Raquin is nimbler than some of my 210s; the 225 Tsourkan WH feels like a 240 because of its robustness, etc.

All these variables, the personality of a knife, are perhaps a reason that compels knife enthusiasts to chase and acquire way more knives that seems reasonable to non-knife enthusiasts. No single gyuto will satisfy all requirements of any given cook.

Personal preferences differ from cook to cook. I like a very blade forward balance point, like 50mm from choil; dig a thick spine outta the handle with good distal; favor kurouchi. Majority of my knives are Sanjo made.

Once you find your perfect gyuto, you'll probably learn from it, further define what you want—and be on the lookout for an upgrade.

Best of luck!
 
cotedupy said:
Description reminds me very much of a knife @Kippington made for a friend of mine...
Click to expand...

Agreed. Here's my 225 Kippington, 52100, work pony, circa a few years ago. Don't know current prices, but it was very reasonably priced for a custom. Jules was a pleasure to work with.

3F66679D-CC8B-4BCE-920C-04FB98EA62CA.jpeg
 
210 kasumi shig only trouble will be the height... Hitting everything else more or less though...
 
Lately, people have been asking me for shorter gyutos with strong taper and blade-heavy balance.

Can I just say: The way I prefer to taper my blades, there's no way to get the balance in front of the pinch (blade heavy) unless the blade is like 270mm long. I can't simultaneously add weight and remove steel (ahead of the pinch).

Hope this makes sense.
 
Better call Leo said:
Consider Mazaki knife. Your description perfectly matched his knife.
Click to expand...

Had a Mazaki 220 in the past. Nice knife for sure and perhaps one of the newer generations would fit the bill. However, the profile was more gently curved and the balance point further back than I'd like (maybe, as Kippington alluded to, that's an unavoidable trade-off of having awesome distal taper). The KS style or bullnose generations look closer to the ideal profile tho I was under the impression the newer ones aren't so oversized as they used to be.

Also true that it wasn't so thin behind the edge, but I'd be willing to put in some time to thin it out if it checked the rest of the boxes.
 
timebard said:
While there's a million great knives I haven't tried yet, I'm starting to feel like I'm deep enough into the rabbit hole to have an idea of what I like, and more interested in honing in on a couple knives that fit me perfectly than cycling through a bunch that don't.

With that goal in mind, does anyone have suggestions on what (short of going custom) matches this description?

-Roughly 225-230x52
-Relatively thick spine over the heel (ideally 4mm+) with good distal taper
-Balance point about +25mm (basically right at or just a hair ahead of pinch grip--a more forward-balanced knife would just need a rehandle, I guess)
-Profile like Wakui (flat but not quite as dead-flat as Yoshikane)
-Thin behind the edge high grind like Yoshikane - maybe a little more convexity but I'd prioritize cutting feel over food release
-Steel doesn't matter too much - any good semi-stainless or carbon would be fine. Better retention than your average white #2 would be nice but I'd rather it feel good on the stones than hold an edge for eons
- Cladding/finish doesn't matter

It seems like Kono Fuji or other Y Tanaka 240s would come sort of close to this, but maybe are thinner than what I'm after? I recall hearing Jon had Kochis in 225 at one point that might fit the bill? Anything else I should be looking at?
Click to expand...
Were you ever able to find what you were looking for?
 
Kippington said:
Lately, people have been asking me for shorter gyutos with strong taper and blade-heavy balance.

Can I just say: The way I prefer to taper my blades, there's no way to get the balance in front of the pinch (blade heavy) unless the blade is like 270mm long. I can't simultaneously add weight and remove steel (ahead of the pinch).

Hope this makes sense.
Click to expand...
A bit late, but figured I'd ask anyway... have you experimented with tapering the tangs to change the balance? Probably quite labor intensive but might be worth at least experimenting with to see what it does.
Though I see your general point about not being able to have your cake and eat it too. This is also why I personally don't really mind the really light ho-wood handles at all; at least it means there's less weight dragging on the ass end. :)

Regarding the original post; Tanaka does indeed tick some of the boxes, but won't have the taper you're looking for (at least mine doesn't).
 
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tostadas said:
Were you ever able to find what you were looking for?
Click to expand...

Sort of--I snagged a Kipp 225 laser from Jules a few months ago. While a couple mm taller than my ideal it checks a lot of the boxes I was looking for and is just a phenomenal cutter. I still would like a 225 with a little more spine thickness and heft/solidity, which brings me to...

ian said:
If you’re awake, you should just try to get one of the workponies @Kippington just posted. It will not satisfy all your specs, perhaps, but it’ll be better than your specs once you get used to it! 😜
Click to expand...

Arghhh, I just missed them--guess that's what I get for sleeping in! If one of the lucky bastards who got one wants to swap for his laser (or a 240 WP) sometime let me know... 🤞
 
Jovidah said:
A bit late, but figured I'd ask anyway... have you experimented with tapering the tangs to change the balance? Probably quite labor intensive but might be worth at least experimenting with to see what it does.
Though I see your general point about not being able to have your cake and eat it too. This is also why I personally don't really mind the really light ho-wood handles at all; at least it means there's less weight dragging on the ass end. :)
Click to expand...

I think tapered tangs are more useful for western handles than wa handles, no? I mean, as is the tang’s pretty anorexic, and doesn't extend all the way to the butt of the handle. Feel like it’s not really the problem here.
 
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