When flattening bevels/removing low spots, how do you know if the stone you are using isn’t coarse enough?

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Miyamoto Musashi

Miyamoto Musashi

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I’m referring to the stone that you use to start the process. Besides an Atoma 140, the lowest stone I have is a 400 grit Chosera (which I’ve read tends to finer).

For people here well versed in bevel flattening/polishing on stones, how do you know if the stone you are using for rough work isn’t coarse enough?

Thank you!
 
Ethan said:
For people here well versed in bevel flattening/polishing on stones, how do you know if the stone you are using for rough work isn’t coarse enough?
Click to expand...
Q: When do you know your stone isn’t coarse enough?
A: When your fingers are sore and you’re cursing the day you started this hare-brained project.

[note: not a guy well-versed in bevel flattening, but well-versed in cursing hare-brained projects]
 
If we’re talking about an initial flattening and the knife isn’t something like a western maker with stone worked bevels, shigefusa or a very high end Sakai single bevel, anything above 220 is too coarse IMO. Will you eventually get the job done? Yes, but more time and fatigue makes me more likely to make mistakes.
 
ethompson said:
If we’re talking about an initial flattening and the knife isn’t something like a western maker with stone worked bevels, shigefusa or a very high end Sakai single bevel, anything above 220 is too coarse IMO. Will you eventually get the job done? Yes, but more time and fatigue makes me more likely to make mistakes.
Click to expand...
Shiiiieeeeet
 
My sense is many people give up on regular stones and shift to either sandpaper or diamonds. I bought an SG220 for thinning and gave up on it, switched to sandpaper which works pretty well, but ultimately ended up with a Nano hone 100 micron diamond resin which I've only used briefly but really like it so far (it's about 110 JIS grit).
 
I'm working out some serious pitting on a vintage knife right now. Spent about 6 hours on the SP120 before I decided it was good enough. Thinning is slow even with the coarsest of stones. Before I had the SP120 I used to do it on a King 300. That was an exercise in pain.
 
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As stated above, SG220 would be the finest stone that i would start with. And in case you might be thinking to drop down and use the atoma for this project, I'd just like offer a word of caution... Unless you are thinning monosteel, I'd steer away from coarse diamond plates. They can gouge the cladding quite deeply, such that is very hard to remove with subsequent stones. I think that this is partly b/c soft steel has a way of grabbing diamonds and pulling them loose. This has been my experience, and it was affirmed by a mentor of mine who said that soft knife steels will wear out a diamond plate faster than sharpening carbide.
 
If stainless clad and lots of work, Shapton Pro 120.

If mono steel, Sigma 240 or Norton Crystolon coarse.

Iron clad use sandpaper, start at 60 grit if really wonky, otherwise start at 120 grit.
 
I like the debado 180 for shaping bevels. Cuts fast, doesn’t dish as fast some others. Scratch marks are easily erased with debado 300. Puts you in a great place to jump to the Chosera 400 which feels more like a 600 grit
 
Bico Doce said:
I like the debado 180 for shaping bevels. Cuts fast, doesn’t dish as fast some others. Scratch marks are easily erased with debado 300. Puts you in a great place to jump to the Chosera 400 which feels more like a 600 grit
Click to expand...
The Debado 180 is a good stone and I use it
The nano hone 70 µm is the most productive stone in my experience
 
Bico Doce said:
I like the debado 180 for shaping bevels. Cuts fast, doesn’t dish as fast some others. Scratch marks are easily erased with debado 300. Puts you in a great place to jump to the Chosera 400 which feels more like a 600 grit
Click to expand...
Does the chosera 400 not fully erase scratching from the 180 Debado?
 
Bico Doce said:
It could if you spent enough time but it’s faster to have a stone in between imo
Click to expand...
I don't know the Debado but the Chosera 400 behaves very differently if used with some pressure. Hard to imagine it wouldn't easily get rid of the scratches. Make sure the Chosera isn't glazed, wait a few minutes after applying water and raise a bit of mud.
 
I usually thin at 120.

Ive always found anything higher is too slow. 220-320 is good for removing the 120 scratches and maybe making final adjustments to geometry. Then ill jump to the 800-1200 range, but its just polishing from there.
 
Delat said:
My sense is many people give up on regular stones and shift to either sandpaper or diamonds. I bought an SG220 for thinning and gave up on it, switched to sandpaper which works pretty well, but ultimately ended up with a Nano hone 100 micron diamond resin which I've only used briefly but really like it so far (it's about 110 JIS grit).
Click to expand...
Do I need to do something to initialize a new NH 100 micron? I tried correcting a bird’s beak on my sujihiki (SK-4) but switched back to my SG220 which produced much more swarf per unit time. Or did I need more pressure? Thinning the ura tip was tricky, it bit off a couple chunks of the resin.
IMG_3701.jpeg
 
mengwong said:
Do I need to do something to initialize a new NH 100 micron? I tried correcting a bird’s beak on my sujihiki (SK-4) but switched back to my SG220 which produced much more swarf per unit time. Or did I need more pressure? Thinning the ura tip was tricky, it bit off a couple chunks of the resin.View attachment 238492
Click to expand...
Yeah, tips are Kryptonite to the NH diamond "stones," and vice versa. Outside of tips, though, I found that I made a lot of progress on mine, but I can't say that I saw enough swarf to account for the progress. I don't know where it all goes.
 
mengwong said:
Do I need to do something to initialize a new NH 100 micron? I tried correcting a bird’s beak on my sujihiki (SK-4) but switched back to my SG220 which produced much more swarf per unit time. Or did I need more pressure? Thinning the ura tip was tricky, it bit off a couple chunks of the resin.
Click to expand...

I've been playing around with a Nano Hone Diamond Resin 100-Micron lately, and it's an interesting abrasive... On some knives (Like a Tosa Aogami #1 Nakiri I recently fixed up.), it eats steel like candy in a really deceptive way... No mess, no fuss, just makes the steel melt away in a really controlled fashion. On other knives (Like the Akifusa SRS-15 Nakiri I also thinned & polished... I guess these were my contribution to ARM.), my Naniwa Pro/Chosera 600 (~20-micron) cut WAY faster.

After testing a lot of coarse abrasives for thinning, my conclusion is... Finding the right abrasives for thinning knives is specific. Just as specific as finding the right stones for edge bevels.

Regarding working on blade tips, or just working generally on the NH Diamond Resin 'stones', I can only say to ease up on the pressure a lot... Use similar pressure you would for stropping on leather, though when thinning secondary bevels one can use back and forth strokes. Ease up, relax, and take your time. Pressure won't really make the abrasive bite much deeper on these 'stones', but it will compress the substrate (Causing more convexing, which you may or may not want to generate, and will also potentially hide some hollows in the grind.), and will cause more loading of the diamond resin matrix (Which will glaze it, and further reduce its cutting power.)... On conventional stones, pressure releases more abrasive, which releases fresh cutting surfaces, so the stone cuts faster... On this, it does the opposite. So, use a light touch, and use more strokes with less effort to do the job... With this methodology, which is a real adjustment from how I'm used to adjusting grind-lines on conventional water stones (Where applying heavy pressure sort of helps me hit the bevel I want to achieve.), tips and zero-grinds don't really bite into the resin.

When the NH DR 100 works for a job, it's such a clean result it's incredible. You do have to treat it like it's abrasive embedded in hard leather, though... There are also times that an SG220 is a better tool for the job, or something else...

Hope this helps.
 
Dan- said:
I just ordered one of these. Do you know a good supplier of abrasives that isn’t Amazon?
Click to expand...
My local Home Depot carries 3M Pro Grade, in the purple packages, and that's good stuff.

BTW I wound up getting an awl with a carbide tip, to help cut it into strips for the Kasfly. Just because I can manage to sharpen shears doesn't mean it's my favorite activity.
 
Steampunk said:
I've been playing around with a Nano Hone Diamond Resin 100-Micron lately, and it's an interesting abrasive...
Click to expand...
I’m starting to get it. This thing is for thinning and polishing, not edges. I was idly kasumi’ing a yanagiba today with an assortment of synths and nats and realized after SG2000 that it had somehow gone cumulonimbus, splotchy uneven whorls of dark kireha. I pulled out the NH100DR and in less than a minute everything had reset to even chrome scratches. I should have gone to SG500 and then to my Ohira Tomae at that point, but I got ambitious and foolish. I’ll reset and do that, next time.
 
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