Coarse stone

[inferno]

also to quantify the results easier its obviously easier to use bigger knives like 240ies or so. or 200s. you at the very least will have to use the same length. otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. and nothing of what you find out will matter at all to be honest. unfortunately.

 

[inferno]

I'd say a valid test would be to flatten/kill the edge completely on a stone of your choice with 100 destroying swipes, back and forth, 90degrees straight up. then both knives will be totally reset. and you will also have to work quite a bit to establish an edge on them.

 

[Knife2meatu]

@inferno
Yeah, I agree with you that similar test media and prolonged tests following a set protocol would be useful -- but this had to be quick and dirty for a number of reasons. Not the least of them being why I'd stopped sharpening a couple of hours ago after I sliced a small bit of fingertip off; that combined with the goodish amount of fingertip skin I abraded messing around with low-grit stones for that last 2 days, meant that it was a good time to stop for the day. So no prolonged testing, I'm afraid.

The other issue is that my knives are virtually all the same kind of Sanelli/Henkels/Fibrox stainless steels, while my tool blades as mainly hardened carbon/low-alloy, so I unfortunately cannot easily make up an ideal testing pair like you suggest.

Nevertheless, I did both large area work and edge work; on both the 63-ish HRC carbon tool steel and on the 57 HRC stainless knife; across the 1k, 1.5k and 2k. And, honestly, they act like you would expect from 3 very similar stones, just varying in grits.

None of the 3 loads/clogs on edge work with either steel, and all three have a tendency to loose aggression on wide areas when the water dries out in patches. All three can then be made to work again fine by rubbing the loading or adding water. All three rinse clean very easily as long as the mud doesn't dry out. None of them gets particularly discolored by loading when they've been rinsed off.

Mind you, this was the very first time I used the 1.5k, and I did find it to be quicker drying/thirstier than the 2 others which I've used for a while now. But I think that's usual with the Shapton Pro the first time they get used -- in fact Shapton recommends soaking them for 5 minutes prior to first use, but only then and not afterwards. I didn't soak the 1.5k for the recommended 5 minutes. But then again, I didn't do so with the other the first times I used them and, although my memory is a little hazy, I seem to recall that they were indeed a touch thirstier at the start.

Maybe there's some real, albeit not huge difference there, besides grit; maybe it shows up more with different combination of pressure and steel. I'm sure I'll come to a firmer determination, one way or the other, with time and usage. But from the first impression I got, the Blue*Medium doesn't differ more than I would've expected from the Orange*Medium and the Green*Medium.

 

[inferno]

you could also just try using the same blade, ss, on the different stones for an equal amount of strokes or similar. you will probably get a feel for if one or another stone feel slower than it should if you have 3 stones to test with.or judge material removal after like 2-300 strokes or so.

What i have read at least is that the 1500 "gets slow" pretty fast with SS. and needs to be refreshed. I have read probably 10 reports of this. and since i have both the 1k and the 2k pro i know this simply does not happen with those 2. my usual victims for these stones are cheap ass SS at like 52-58hrc (globals being the upper end here). I can go for as long as i want on both of these and they will never lose bite or clog.

if the fibrox is victorinox this will be one of the most smeary SS. i personally had no problems sharpeing it. and used if as my main knife for about a year. and it gets crazy sharp. it got so sharp i cut my owm finger to the bone without feeling a thing. no shhit. need to pay more attention i guess. that was off the white rods off a sharpmaker though. 30 degree.

i never soak any of my pro stones. i simply splash water on them and then let that soak in for maybe one minute and then splash some more on there, then they are done. they dont really absorb any water visually. but i know they absorb some. otherwise they wouldn't dry out.

 

[rick alen]

Shapton wire puller of edge moss, what is this?

https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Shar...+220&qid=1553348989&s=gateway&sr=8-3-fkmrnull

 

[Ivan Hersh]

I was digging around in some of my material samples, and found this COOR'S Ceramic Armor Surfacing Stone, this sample was for a wearing area surfacing in a pulverizer machine.

I decided to try using it on a cheap knife with really hard steel that has resisted sharping using my normal stones.

I was quickly in a very few pass's on wet stone, surprised to see how quickly this Coors stone got the blade sharper then
i had ever before got it.

Anyone ever seen this Coors material being used for knife sharping?

 

[foody518]

@inferno
Yeah, I agree with you that similar test media and prolonged tests following a set protocol would be useful -- but this had to be quick and dirty for a number of reasons. Not the least of them being why I'd stopped sharpening a couple of hours ago after I sliced a small bit of fingertip off; that combined with the goodish amount of fingertip skin I abraded messing around with low-grit stones for that last 2 days, meant that it was a good time to stop for the day. So no prolonged testing, I'm afraid.

The other issue is that my knives are virtually all the same kind of Sanelli/Henkels/Fibrox stainless steels, while my tool blades as mainly hardened carbon/low-alloy, so I unfortunately cannot easily make up an ideal testing pair like you suggest.

Nevertheless, I did both large area work and edge work; on both the 63-ish HRC carbon tool steel and on the 57 HRC stainless knife; across the 1k, 1.5k and 2k. And, honestly, they act like you would expect from 3 very similar stones, just varying in grits.

None of the 3 loads/clogs on edge work with either steel, and all three have a tendency to loose aggression on wide areas when the water dries out in patches. All three can then be made to work again fine by rubbing the loading or adding water. All three rinse clean very easily as long as the mud doesn't dry out. None of them gets particularly discolored by loading when they've been rinsed off.

Mind you, this was the very first time I used the 1.5k, and I did find it to be quicker drying/thirstier than the 2 others which I've used for a while now. But I think that's usual with the Shapton Pro the first time they get used -- in fact Shapton recommends soaking them for 5 minutes prior to first use, but only then and not afterwards. I didn't soak the 1.5k for the recommended 5 minutes. But then again, I didn't do so with the other the first times I used them and, although my memory is a little hazy, I seem to recall that they were indeed a touch thirstier at the start.

Maybe there's some real, albeit not huge difference there, besides grit; maybe it shows up more with different combination of pressure and steel. I'm sure I'll come to a firmer determination, one way or the other, with time and usage. But from the first impression I got, the Blue*Medium doesn't differ more than I would've expected from the Orange*Medium and the Green*Medium.

I don't remember my Shapton 1.5k loading on edge work on your typical American/German stainless steel kitchen knives, either. Maybe I'll pull it out again and verify

 

[Peter]

Great idea Peter! Are the two somehow flat afterward or you get two convex stones? How often do you lap them or how concave before you lap them, just curious?

Btw just crossed my mind having two 220 stones makes it having 4 surfaces to even. So rather having 3 stone evening i have 4. That's why it sounded odd. I have them even because 4 surfaces of two stones evening in sequences. I have them flat as emotions of a robot.

 

[never mind]

Good idea, Peter. Thanks for a follow-up thought. Maybe it’s only you & me who are nuts enough to have 2 same rough stones.


Time flew, and after I finished up a shapton glass 120x to its very bottom, I bought two of the nasty sigma oribest 120x stones to follow what you’ve tried & confirmed in using two same stones (I read chinacats’s thread about sigma 120x).


...Well, I mounted them on cheap wood, so it’s not the best idea as I have only 2 total sides, vs. your 4 even surfaces! It’s just a habit to mount all my stones. Yes, the 120x stones remain flat, but mine over time are no longer leveled. It bends one way toward one corner, but the surfaces are flat and the stones got much thinner now. It’s usable tho, no complaints! I don’t want to spend more time to grind them to be leveled.

 

[Knife2meatu]

[...]Maybe it’s only you & me who are nuts enough to have 2 same rough stones.

I'm sure you're not the only ones.

I bought two of the nasty sigma oribest 120x stones to follow what you’ve tried & confirmed in using two same stones (I read chinacats’s thread about sigma 120x).

I have a small (206mm x 53mm x 25mm, iirc) Sigma 120 from their "Ceramic" line: The stone itself looks virtually identical to the Oribest, except for the box, which is black instead of green, I think. I've been wondering about the Oribest; the other Oribest stones seem to have a reputation for being more friable and, I believe, faster cutting on account of it, than the Ceramic. I wonder if we can get somebody who's used both to chime in.

I find the Ceramic 120 cuts fast, but tends to slow down due to loading and the abrasive round over, instead of dishing. So mine gets refreshed with loose SiC on glass faster than it goes out of flat.

Well, I mounted them on cheap wood, so it’s not the best idea as I have only 2 total sides, vs. your 4 even surfaces! It’s just a habit to mount all my stones. Yes, the 120x stones remain flat, but mine over time are no longer leveled. It bends one way toward one corner, but the surfaces are flat and the stones got much thinner now. It’s usable tho, no complaints! I don’t want to spend more time to grind them to be leveled.

I do enjoy having my Sigma 120 permasoaked for convenience and improved clogging resistance, and I don't suppose I could leave it in water if it were mounted to wood, which is sort of what has me wondering if the Oribest and Ceramic are considerably different.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Are you mounting the shapton glass stones on wood? Even larger soakers I use only one side until worn thin. At work big Kings would get flipped when one side too dished. Keep my stones pretty flat so no need to flip.

Only shaptons I have used are 2K green pro. They make good touch up stones for gyuto. Better Imo to using steels or ceramic rods.

The 220 glass posted in this thread only 39.00 pretty cheap. Might try one out not going to pay for a glass stone holder. Mounting seems like a good option.

 

[never mind]

Oh my bad, if there are the bases coming with the stones, i don’t mount wood on them (like shapton glass 120x with the glass base, kitayama 8k, king 4k and 6k with the plastic/wooden bases) so to use to the last mm of it.


The shapton 2k green pro was cracked to many pieces, and I glued them to the wooden base, no problem. I saw some kitayama 8k cracked too but still useable with the base, while my shapton glass stones never crack (yet).


I don’t use shapton 2k green pro much these days. I learn that when i sharpen and maintain many knives at a time, it’s faster for me to just grab shapton 500x or 1k, and finish/polish quickly on shapton 5k and other stone finishers, or like you I just steel the knives (dmt die fold).


If I had money, I also might buy more rough shapton stones (cleaner and more enjoyable to use at home, and slimmer, lighter during traveling to my relatives’ homes) rather than sigma oribest 120x, which is much thicker in a bagpack and messier/louder during use & flattening. The sigma is economical fo me ($30). It thinned and ground more knives now than my shapton glass 120x stone ($42).


I admit that sometimes i have a daydream about shapton stone holders. I don’t like using a shapton pro box as a stone holder because it is light and shaky during sharpening. If I were to have lots of money, the shapton glass stone holder maybe useful. My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).

 

[never mind]

I do enjoy having my Sigma 120 permasoaked for convenience and improved clogging resistance

That’s a good idea to soak it.

When i flip the rough sigma oribest 120x down to flatten, i hurt my palm more during a few hours grinding than when i have the wooden base on it. I have to flatten sigma 120x more often than other rough stones that I have, but I don’t mind it. I had tried flattening the sigma 120x oribest without a base and it hurt my hand more, but maybe it’s just me.

 

[M1k3]

Alexa, Open the Coconut....

Oh my bad, if there are the bases coming with the stones, i don’t mount wood on them (like shapton glass 120x with the glass base, kitayama 8k, king 4k and 6k with the plastic/wooden bases) so to use to the last mm of it.


The shapton 2k green pro was cracked to many pieces, and I glued them to the wooden base, no problem. I saw some kitayama 8k cracked too but still useable with the base, while my shapton glass stones never crack (yet).


I don’t use shapton 2k green pro much these days. I learn that when i sharpen and maintain many knives at a time, it’s faster for me to just grab shapton 500x or 1k, and finish/polish quickly on shapton 5k and other stone finishers, or like you I just steel the knives (dmt die fold).


If I had money, I also might buy more rough shapton stones (cleaner and more enjoyable to use at home, and slimmer, lighter during traveling to my relatives’ homes) rather than sigma oribest 120x, which is much thicker in a bagpack and messier/louder during use & flattening. The sigma is economical fo me ($30). It thinned and ground more knives now than my shapton glass 120x stone ($42).


I admit that sometimes i have a daydream about shapton stone holders. I don’t like using a shapton pro box as a stone holder because it is light and shaky during sharpening. If I were to have lots of money, the shapton glass stone holder maybe useful. My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).

Put a stone or diamond plate in the box.

 

[never mind]

Thank you, I should put a stone in the box

 

[stringer]

My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).

I trim the rubber pieces on my stone holders to accommodate shorter height or longer length stones.

 

[stringer]

Here's some pics.

Cut the top off for worn SG stones


Take the middle thing out to accommodate shorty stones



Trim the stops back as far as you can to accommodate big guys

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Thanks Stringer I have a couple of those could lose the center block & trim the edge pieces on one of them.

 

[stringer]

Suehiro makes a stone holder that's just two separate rubber things with no connector rods. I won one in an eBay auction along with a Debado 200. I will let you all know how I feel about both of them in a week or two after I get a chance to test them out.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Yes I have seen those much cheaper than the over priced shapton glass stone holders. Always wanted to try the glass stones. They sell both the pro's & the glass at Cherry Japanese Imports here.

 

[kayman67]

Just find someone to make you a few plexiglass pieces and double tape them to SG as needed. They can be reused. Problem solved for me. Albeit I have a Shapton holder as well these days, but I rarely use it.

 

[stringer]

I bought a little vintage Kikuichi Gyuto. I think they actually call it a bunka. Stainless clad Vg5 or 10. It gave me a great opportunity to test out the Debado 200. I picked this up with the suehiro 2-part rubber stand for about $50USD on auction. The 200 retails for 85-100$ and the stand for $15-20. Both are BNIB. I love it. It's faster and actually slightly coarser than my Crystolon without the mess of oil. However, it's still messy. It's a very muddy stone. I'm sure it will dish like crazy. The sound is not as loud or annoying as the Crystolon or the King 320. It's way faster than the King 320. Without all the baloney required to keep it cutting that comes with the King 320. It's massive. An inch wider and longer than most Japanese stones. But not really tall. Maybe 25mm. I can measure later if folks are interested. I'll have to reserve judgement on whether I would pay full retail for it until after I see how fast it dishes. But it cuts beautifully so far.

 

[PappaG]

Nice. Killer deal. Those Debados are next on my list of stones to try. I hope the prices come down, or I can find deals like that.

 

[Knife2meatu]

@stringer I'm very curious to get an idea how fast the Debado wears. Is this the MD-20 model? It sounds like you got a great deal.

But considering the usual going price, it would need to do something at least a little special, it seems to me. How thirsty is it?

 

[stringer]

@stringer I'm very curious to get an idea how fast the Debado wears. Is this the MD-20 model? It sounds like you got a great deal.

But considering the usual going price, it would need to do something at least a little special, it seems to me. How thirsty is it?

Yes the MD 20. It's very, very thirsty. If you don't keep adding water pretty constantly it quickly turns to sludge. So I have a feeling it will wear rather quickly. I did get a great deal. Just one of those lucky times on the Bay. I tend to see things that interest me and then bid what I would be willing to pay for it. 9 times out of 10 someone is willing to pay a little more than I am. But every once in awhile something flies under the radar and ends up in my little workshop. I had bid on it with 3 weeks left in the auction and then forgot about it. Unexpected "Pay Now" messages are not usually pleasant surprises. I am really enjoying it so far. Would I enjoy it as much at $100? Too soon to tell.

 

[Knife2meatu]

@stringer This is the MD-20's description from MTC Kitchen -- whom I feel have some of the most informative blurbs, anywhere, about the stones they sell --

The Debado MD line is an extra-wide series that were developed to be an easy solution to sharpening small blades which can often be sharpened along the entire length at once. The extra width makes sharpening longer knives and thinning more comfortable as well as there is a larger area for the blade to rest and a more consistent result may be achieved.

The Debado 200# MD is very similar in look and feel to most standard "green brick" coarse stones that may be found from any number of brands. The remarkable thing about this stone, however, is that it is splash and go, which anyone with experience with coarse stones in this grit range is somewhat rare. In use this stone feels very comparable to a traditional coarse 200-240 green brick but with a thinner mud and much less wear. Scratch depth is comparable while cutting speed may be slightly slower, but not significantly. This stone is wonderful for heavy thinning work on single bevels. It does not produce the "halo" effect above the shinogi line that the Shapton Traditional 120 does and the scratches are not quite as deep.

Perhaps you can later critique their appraisal, in light of your first hand experience with the stone.

Like I said before, wear rate and water absorption are, to my mind, what could more-or-less justify this thing's frankly high asking price. Although the bit about the "halo" is interesting too; I don't usually think of how thick or thin the mud is as impacting those scratches above the bevel, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[stringer]

@stringer

Perhaps you can later critique their appraisal, in light of your first hand experience with the stone.

Like I said before, wear rate and water absorption are, to my mind, what could more-or-less justify this thing's frankly high asking price. Although the bit about the "halo" is interesting too; I don't usually think of how thick or thin the mud is as impacting those scratches above the bevel, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

Bigger is definitely better. The usable surface area of the stone is outstanding. I have tried it splash and go and with a fifteen minute soak. There wasn't too much difference in performance. I can only compare it to other stuff I have used. I haven't tried a traditional green brick or a Shapton 120. I can tell you that it is about ten times muddier and faster wearing than my king 320. It's at least twice as fast wearing as my Shapton Glass 500. It's not muddier than my Suehiro 1000 or King 800. The scratch pattern is very similar to my Crystolon coarse. The King 320 didn't have any problem removing the 200 pattern in just a few minutes. So far I have about an hour on the stone working with that little Kikuichi. Here is the wear compared to a flat marble slab.

I probably will never flatten it. I usually don't bother with coarse stones. The size of this stone will also be an asset in keeping it level. You can have nice long strokes in about any direction or orientation.

 

[M1k3]

Hrm, I was hoping it wasn't nearly as muddy. I'm looking for something that acts similar to the SG 500, much much coarser. Like 120-220 range. But good score nonetheless.

 

[kayman67]

As far as I was told, you might like Nano hone 200. I didn't managed to get one just yet. Working on it.

 

[M1k3]

As far as I was told, you might like Nano hone 200. I didn't managed to get one just yet. Working on it.

Yeah, that one is on my short list that just had this debado taken off of. I might just have to get it. Really hate my Naniwa SS 220.