Kaiju and TF Steel

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blokey said:
1.2562 and AS was studied for the development of AU, Larrin’s article on the developmental goal and design is quite interesting read
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I feel like i read the whole thing when it came out.

But i just think i read so many papers and articles I just forget, and have to come back and read them again. It helps if i take notes, to retain the stuff. But i always tell myself "i will just read this one really quick, and go back through and write notes".

Anyway. I'll check the article out again.
 
blokey said:
1.2562 and AS was studied for the development of AU, Larrin’s article on the developmental goal and design is quite interesting read
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The Chromium addition in ApexUltra, seems to be borrowed from 52100. Been awhile since I read the article, so not sure if that was mentioned.
 
Troopah_Knives said:
the Denka's I have seen are all extremely finely ground behind the edge which I find really contributes a lot to that feeling of "this knife can cut forever without being sharpened".
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This figure has made me think a lot about my sharpening habits.

https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c...ontribution-to-edge-retention.jpg?w=624&ssl=1
I found my old Denka took a very steep angle due to its high hardness. That came at the cost of easy chipping. But the chipped edge still cut well. I found a noticeable difference in sharpness feeling when running the edge at conventional vs more acute sharpening angles.
 
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captaincaed said:
This figure has made me think a lot about my sharpening habits.

https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c...ontribution-to-edge-retention.jpg?w=624&ssl=1
I found my old Denka took a very steep angle due to its high hardness. That came at the cost of easy chipping. But the chipping still let it cut well. I found a noticeable difference in sharpness feeling when running it at conventional vs acute sharpening angles.
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Sharpening angle is seriously important, in Larrin‘s other article, a 20 and 50 degree angle have almost 9 times the difference in CATRA result, considering even Rex121 is only around 3 times of 1095 it is very decisive. And the ability to sustain such an angle in use is not in every steel, thus you see people find Blue super last longer than vg10.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/maximizing-edge-retention/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/what-is-edge-stability/
 
captaincaed said:
But the chipping still let it cut well
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I was thinking about this on the drive home…

The image that comes to mind is a knapped stone, like this
IMG_7800.png

https://www.thecarvingpath.net/topic/1141-“knapped”-steel-blade-tutorial-for-ford/index.html
As the flakes wear off the edge, a new edge is revealed, still keen, like how the scallops on a serrated knife are still sharp throughout.

As opposed to the usual knife chip, where the bottom of the curve is thick and has no apex.
 
blokey said:
Sharpening angle is seriously important, in Larrin‘s other article, a 20 and 50 degree angle have almost 9 times the difference in CATRA result, considering even Rex121 is only around 3 times of 1095 it is very decisive. And the ability to sustain such an angle in use is not in every steel, thus you see people find Blue super last longer than vg10.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/18/maximizing-edge-retention/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/what-is-edge-stability/
Click to expand...

I just love the PhD smackdown language - “that result was not confirmed”, “suspiciously round numbers”, “fantastical studies” 😂

More seriously - would you adjust sharpening angle depending on the steel? e.g. 20 inclusive for AS at 65 HRC, 30 inclusive for 52100 at 62 HRC?

I’ve been doing all my knives at 30 inclusive and now you have me wondering if I should go lower. All my steels are fairly common simple carbons and stainless in the HRC 62-65 range.
 
Delat said:
I just love the PhD smackdown language - “that result was not confirmed”, “suspiciously round numbers”, “fantastical studies” 😂

More seriously - would you adjust sharpening angle depending on the steel? e.g. 20 inclusive for AS at 65 HRC, 30 inclusive for 52100 at 62 HRC?

I’ve been doing all my knives at 30 inclusive and now you have me wondering if I should go lower. All my steels are fairly common simple carbons and stainless in the HRC 62-65 range.
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I use the guess and check method. Pick a starting geometry, and use it for a bit. if you are getting excessive edge wear due to chipping increase the angle by 1DPS and try again. After doing this a few times you can start to figure out numbers that work well for your technique and blade geometry.
 
Troopah_Knives said:
I use the guess and check method. Pick a starting geometry, and use it for a bit. if you are getting excessive edge wear due to chipping increase the angle by 1DPS and try again. After doing this a few times you can start to figure out numbers that work well for your technique and blade geometry.
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This is exactly how to do it with the only caveat being that free hand sharpeners in most cases have no idea what angle they are sharpening at and can't control adjustments to angles with any precision.
Delat said:
More seriously - would you adjust sharpening angle depending on the steel? e.g. 20 inclusive for AS at 65 HRC, 30 inclusive for 52100 at 62 HRC?
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In theory you absolutely should adjust your edge geometry based on the steel, heat treat combination and the task. Acute angles on hard steel is one of the reasons why people seem to think low alloy steels can compete in edge holding with high alloy steels. So like @Troopah_Knives suggested if you have fine enough control you should figure out the most acute edge angle your knives can sustain without chipping or deforming for your technique and the tasks. Taking to extreme that would mean that potentially every knife in your collection would have a different optimal edge angle which would be a pain and not really sustainable without some sort of a fixed angle sharpening system. On the other hand maybe you can find an average compromise of sorts.

This is also one of the reasons many here seem to disagree with other forums, where fixed angle sharpening systems are more of a norm, on which steels are best.
 
Delat said:
I just love the PhD smackdown language - “that result was not confirmed”, “suspiciously round numbers”, “fantastical studies” 😂

More seriously - would you adjust sharpening angle depending on the steel? e.g. 20 inclusive for AS at 65 HRC, 30 inclusive for 52100 at 62 HRC?

I’ve been doing all my knives at 30 inclusive and now you have me wondering if I should go lower. All my steels are fairly common simple carbons and stainless in the HRC 62-65 range.
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Hard 52100 should be able to take a mean angle, consider their fine structure and toughness
 
Barmoley said:
This is exactly how to do it with the only caveat being that free hand sharpeners in most cases have no idea what angle they are sharpening at and can't control adjustments to angles with any precision.

In theory you absolutely should adjust your edge geometry based on the steel, heat treat combination and the task. Acute angles on hard steel is one of the reasons why people seem to think low alloy steels can compete in edge holding with high alloy steels. So like @Troopah_Knives suggested if you have fine enough control you should figure out the most acute edge angle your knives can sustain without chipping or deforming for your technique and the tasks. Taking to extreme that would mean that potentially every knife in your collection would have a different optimal edge angle which would be a pain and not really sustainable without some sort of a fixed angle sharpening system. On the other hand maybe you can find an average compromise of sorts.

This is also one of the reasons many here seem to disagree with other forums, where fixed angle sharpening systems are more of a norm, on which steels are best.
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Tbf. At least I personally think fixed angle systems are a good choice for some people. And get a lot of undeserved hate by every kitchen knife community ive been in.

I don't use one personally, but i would like to get one at some point for more precise testing.

But anyway. I think stuff like the tsprof are a great choice for people, and can certainly match any results gotten by hand.
 
Blank Blades. said:
Tbf. At least I personally think fixed angle systems are a good choice for some people. And get a lot of undeserved hate by every kitchen knife community ive been in.

I don't use one personally, but i would like to get one at some point for more precise testing.

But anyway. I think stuff like the tsprof are a great choice for people, and can certainly match any results gotten by hand.
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using those kinds of systems is fine, you just have to understand the implications of asymmetry with them.

theyre not my preference for kitchen knives but I own a tsprof and use it on my folders.
 
Blank Blades. said:
Tbf. At least I personally think fixed angle systems are a good choice for some people. And get a lot of undeserved hate by every kitchen knife community ive been in.

I don't use one personally, but i would like to get one at some point for more precise testing.

But anyway. I think stuff like the tsprof are a great choice for people, and can certainly match any results gotten by hand.
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We use guided sharpening system and, to be honest, we have yet to see a master sharpener who can match our sharpness level using freehand sharpening. Fixed angle sharpening systems are simply better.
 
tcmx3 said:
using those kinds of systems is fine, you just have to understand the implications of asymmetry with them.

theyre not my preference for kitchen knives but I own a tsprof and use it on my folders.
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Asymmetry? What do you mean by that?
 
SABOL BROTHERS said:
We use guided sharpening system and, to be honest, we have yet to see a master sharpener who can match our sharpness level using freehand sharpening. Fixed angle sharpening systems are simply better.
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Possibly not.

Though. I do think the micrconvexity that will inherently happen when freehand sharpening may make for a more robust edge, which while not being as sharp out of the gate, might have better stability.

And when i say not as sharp. It can still be quite sharp, like hht 4 or 5.

Edit: what I'm trying to say is both could potentially have some benefit.
 
Delat said:
I just love the PhD smackdown language - “that result was not confirmed”, “suspiciously round numbers”, “fantastical studies” 😂

More seriously - would you adjust sharpening angle depending on the steel? e.g. 20 inclusive for AS at 65 HRC, 30 inclusive for 52100 at 62 HRC?

I’ve been doing all my knives at 30 inclusive and now you have me wondering if I should go lower. All my steels are fairly common simple carbons and stainless in the HRC 62-65 range.
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Definitely try lower. I'd even say start as low of angle as you can do consistently, use the knife and adjust as you see fit. It's easy to add a higher angle to the edge.
 
We've discussed fixed angled sharpening systems many times and as everything else they have their pros and cons, but if you wanted to find the best, specific edge angle for a specific steel it is hard to imagine how you would be able to do it better than using one of these. Of course for thinning, quick touch ups, asymmetry, different angles over the length of the edge or even for convenience free handing is better. On the other hand for precise angles and angle control of single degrees, ultimate sharpness, removing the least steel possible or anything where high pression is concerned improving on a fixed angle system is tough. Maybe possible by a few best free hand sharpeners in the world, but is certainly not for 99.99% of free hand sharpeners. Most just don't spend enough time sharpening to get there or don't have the motor skills to do it at all to that level. There is really no argument in the folder and outdoor knife world which is better, but those knives are often symmetrical are made of high wear resistant steels and have simpler grinds. They are also very rarely thinned.

In any case I only brought up fixed angle sharpening systems because it would be hard to find the best angle for your specific knife without one. We just don't have that type of control and precision when free hand sharpening.
 
Blank Blades. said:
Possibly not.

Though. I do think the micrconvexity that will inherently happen when freehand sharpening may make for a more robust edge, which while not being as sharp out of the gate, might have better stability.

And when i say not as sharp. It can still be quite sharp, like hht 4 or 5.

Edit: what I'm trying to say is both could potentially have some benefit.
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Actually, if you have a "V" edge and a convex edge both at the same angle (for example 15° per side), "V" edge will have more mass and will be stronger, and convex edge will have less mass (no shoulders) and will cut better, but will be easier to damage.
 
And here I was thinking I was going to get a thread on TF and Kaiju steel experiences...

I guess if a thread is already about TF then the principle of reductio ad TF cannot apply and the principle of reductio ad jig sharpening must supersede.

If we're going to hash this out, then fine... I consider myself competent at freehand sharpening and I recently tried a jig system. My take is that while I'm sure on a theoretical level the jig is superior the practical results are a wash and the increase in PITA that comes with sharpening is seriously not worth it. Few weekends ago I did my first serious sharpening (not just bevel touchups) in a long time. Something like 6 knives using maybe 30 different stones (not on each, but was also trying a lot of stuff). Took me half an hour maybe to cut in a fresh bevel on each and take each blade through to my chosen refinement level. Just way more efficient than a jig. Plus I have yet to meet a jig that will accommodate my Okudo...
 
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ethompson said:
And here I was thinking I was going to get a thread on TF and Kaiju steel experiences...

I guess if a thread is already about TF then the principle of reductio ad TF cannot apply and the principle of reductio ad jig sharpening must supersede.

If we're going to hash this out, then fine... I consider myself competent at freehand sharpening and I recently tried a jig system. My take is that while I'm sure on a theoretical level the jig is superior the practical results are a wash and the increase in PITA that comes with sharpening is seriously not worth it. Few weekends ago I did my first serious sharpening (not just bevel touchups) in a long time. Something like 6 knives using maybe 30 different stones (not on each, but was also trying a lot of stuff). Took me half an hour maybe to cut in a fresh bevel on each and take each blade through to my chosen refinement level. Just way more efficient than a jig. Plus I have yet to meet a jig that will accommodate my Okudo...
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You've been here long enough to know better... thread title has nothing to do with thread content. Besides how many people have experience with Kaiju to talk about it and what is there to still say about TF at this point.

As far jigs go, quality fixed angle systems will give you higher sharpness, but as with free sharpening there is a learning curve. You can't expect to just pick one of these up use it and proclaim that results are no better than free hand that you spent years practicing. This was very evident to me when using one in a passaround recently. If you spend enough time with Ts pro, edge pro, sharpworx, etc. I would bet that purely for sharpening you would be able to get your edges sharper especially with harder to sharpen steels or if you wanted to find optimal angles for each steel. Like you say though for general sharpening to good enough levels hard to improve on free hand from a convenience perspective, if you are competent enough.

SABOL BROTHERS said:
Actually, if you have a "V" edge and a convex edge both at the same angle (for example 15° per side), "V" edge will have more mass and will be stronger, and convex edge will have less mass (no shoulders) and will cut better, but will be easier to damage.
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This is usually not what happens with free hand vs fixed angle, think of a V inside the convex not convex inside the V. Usually you get more durable, less sharp edges with free hand and higher sharpness less durable edge with fixed angle systems. Not always, but in general. It's because of what happens when you free hand you try to stick to an angle you start with but tend to wobble and convex it toward the edge, increase the angle, so at the edge you get convex with the angle higher than what you think, so in this example higher than 15° so less sharp, more durable, dulls quicker if dulling is primarily from wear, less quick if from chipping or deformation.
 
Barmoley said:
You've been here long enough to know better... thread title has nothing to do with thread content. Besides how many people have experience with Kaiju to talk about it and what is there to still say about TF at this point.

As far jigs go, quality fixed angle systems will give you higher sharpness, but as with free sharpening there is a learning curve. You can't expect to just pick one of these up use it and proclaim that results are no better than free hand that you spent years practicing. This was very evident to me when using one in a passaround recently. If you spend enough time with Ts pro, edge pro, sharpworx, etc. I would bet that purely for sharpening you would be able to get your edges sharper especially with harder to sharpen steels or if you wanted to find optimal angles for each steel. Like you say though for general sharpening to good enough levels hard to improve on free hand from a convenience perspective, if you are competent enough.


This is usually not what happens with free hand vs fixed angle, think of a V inside the convex not convex inside the V. Usually you get more durable, less sharp edges with free hand and higher sharpness less durable edge with fixed angle systems. Not always, but in general. It's because of what happens when you free hand you try to stick to an angle you start with but tend to wobble and convex it toward the edge, increase the angle, so at the edge you get convex with the angle higher than what you think, so in this example higher than 15° so less sharp, more durable, dulls quicker if dulling is primarily from wear, less quick if from chipping or deformation.
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Kaiju steel is just Y Tanaka blue1/2
 
I guess to be more on-topic, what these 2 have in common
1. low-allow tungsten steel
2. very easy to get a very sharp edge (even compared to similar steels)
3. relatively hard (allegedly)


So probably worth narrowing down on those qualities. I would guess 2 and 3 are more important. Not a stretch to say hard 1.2519, 1.2562, ApexUltra would be also be similar enough. Maybe 1.2442 and some O-class steels?
 
superworrier said:
I guess to be more on-topic, what these 2 have in common
1. low-allow tungsten steel
2. very easy to get a very sharp edge (even compared to similar steels)
3. relatively hard (allegedly)


So probably worth narrowing down on those qualities. I would guess 2 and 3 are more important. Not a stretch to say hard 1.2519, 1.2562, ApexUltra would be also be similar enough. Maybe 1.2442 and some O-class steels?
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1.2519 and ApexUltra hey? BRB, DMing @KAMON Knives about a monolith
 
Barmoley said:
You've been here long enough to know better... thread title has nothing to do with thread content. Besides how many people have experience with Kaiju to talk about it and what is there to still say about TF at this point.

As far jigs go, quality fixed angle systems will give you higher sharpness, but as with free sharpening there is a learning curve. You can't expect to just pick one of these up use it and proclaim that results are no better than free hand that you spent years practicing. This was very evident to me when using one in a passaround recently. If you spend enough time with Ts pro, edge pro, sharpworx, etc. I would bet that purely for sharpening you would be able to get your edges sharper especially with harder to sharpen steels or if you wanted to find optimal angles for each steel. Like you say though for general sharpening to good enough levels hard to improve on free hand from a convenience perspective, if you are competent enough.


This is usually not what happens with free hand vs fixed angle, think of a V inside the convex not convex inside the V. Usually you get more durable, less sharp edges with free hand and higher sharpness less durable edge with fixed angle systems. Not always, but in general. It's because of what happens when you free hand you try to stick to an angle you start with but tend to wobble and convex it toward the edge, increase the angle, so at the edge you get convex with the angle higher than what you think, so in this example higher than 15° so less sharp, more durable, dulls quicker if dulling is primarily from wear, less quick if from chipping or deformation.
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Yeah, what you said at the end is what i think the case is really.

Its just a completely different thing if the microconvex is starting at a shallower angle, but doesn't make much sense for a comparison. Rather just if you start at lets say 15 degrees with both a fixed angle, and freehand, in reality, on a microscopic level the freehand is going to be closer to 17 or so degrees right near the apex. Like you said. Leading to the apex not quite being as fine, as a perfectly shaped v's would. But stronger none the less.
 
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