Knife Skill and Abilities.

[Jeff]

I’m #1 !!!

Only because I cit the rest of my fingers off

See! I can’t even type!

 

[Jeff]

Since I started posting on KKF, my d!ck has become half an inch shorter!!!

Did I do something wrong?

Of it was an inch longer it would be a foot

 

[Jeff]

Of it was an inch longer it would be a foot

**IF** it was an inch longer …

 

[Ochazuke]

I'm of the opinion that good knives don't make good cooks. And good knives are secondary to basic skills. I agree with @stringer that just getting hands on knives is the best thing to do to level up your knife skills.

The only thing I'd like to add is that it's worthwhile just cooking through a lot of different recipes. Some styles of cutting just click when you try and make a dish and the reason for a cut just becomes obvious. Then the how of the cutting techniques usually clicks too.

Basically: eat food by good chefs and try to make food like good chefs. That'll push your knife skill along a bit too.

 

[Jeff]

I'm of the opinion that good knives don't make good cooks. And good knives are secondary to basic skills. I agree with @stringer that just getting hands on knives is the best thing to do to level up your knife skills.

The only thing I'd like to add is that it's worthwhile just cooking through a lot of different recipes. Some styles of cutting just click when you try and make a dish and the reason for a cut just becomes obvious. Then the how of the cutting techniques usually clicks too.

Basically: eat food by good chefs and try to make food like good chefs. That'll push your knife skill along a bit too.

And FWIW … Watch those guys use a knife.

Many pro cooks “beat” the blade; scraping and using it hard.

That is not “abuse,” they just recognize it as a tool to be used (and re-sharpened) I see contractors buying good power tools and using tjem the same way … hard.

IMHO that is why there are so few vintage GERMAN & FRENCH knives remaining not “sharpened out.”

Tools are meant to be used!

 

[gentiscid]

Yeah, “How to bend your knife” guide lol

 

[iimi]

And FWIW … Watch those guys use a knife.

Many pro cooks “beat” the blade; scraping and using it hard.

That is not “abuse,” they just recognize it as a tool to be used (and re-sharpened) I see contractors buying good power tools and using tjem the same way … hard.

IMHO that is why there are so few vintage GERMAN & FRENCH knives remaining not “sharpened out.”

Tools are meant to be used!

I just keep a yoshikane or a nihei in my bag for when I have the time to make perfect cuts and my other knives get used to microchips every double shift anyways. Probably why I like something super flexing thin like a yoshi or something convex and workhorsey like a matsubara, and not really anything in between.

 

[stringer]

Yeah, “How to bend your knife” guide lol

Pretty tame compared to how I do it.

 

[ecchef]

Pretty tame compared to how I do it.

Stringer’s method here is pretty much SOP in commercial kitchens where time is money. House beaters are jacks of all trades when production speed is the goal for prep rather than precision. For a long time I‘d get through most of my day with only a 270 Moritaka tall Gyuto. I adjusted my technique (both sharpening and cutting) to get acceptable results with one tool and I didn't sweat the occasional chip or pitting. For occasions where I can spend more time on the ‘craft’, my job specific knives are treated with the care they deserve.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

So reading this clued me in as to why I prefer to touch up after each shift and don’t really get much benefit from high carbide super steels.

by the same token though has anyone else noticed this — when I lend a knife to someone who learned technique with house beaters and culinary school Mercers and stuff, even if they are quite skilled with those, the edge dulling is far more than when I use it for the same amount of work because they’re using too much force

 

[kpham12]

Learning to thin really helped improve my knife technique. In simple terms, a thinner edge gets you more precise cuts with less force so you can focus more on technique and eventually speed. Also, less energy expended and less hand/arm fatigue over a long prep session.Your knife is more prone to microchipping, regular chipping, edge rolling, etc, but it’s also much easier to touch up, sharpen or repair a knife that’s thin behind the edge. You do have to invest the initial time thinning, but I think it’s a net positive.

 

[bsfsu]

I was a chef for over 20 years, I trained in fine dinning in the 90's and worked on super yachts as a private chef and high volume restaurants. Fairly proficient with a knife but glad I'm not having to cut for money now

 

[KnightKnightForever]

Mine are good. Went to a classic culinary school who put a lot of emphasis into French technique. So, a good starting point is practicing the F out of small dice, medium dice, large dice, brunoise, chiffonade, batons, salad cut vs sautee cutting an onion, mincing, and even tournads. Learning to properly Tournad a potato was one of the most frustrating experiences for me over the years. And of course, before all of that, you learn to protect your fingers and only expose your knuckles in "the claw"..

 

[timebard]

Decent for a home cook, probably entirely deficient for any real work. I can generally do reasonably precise cutting, or move reasonably fast, but absolutely not both at once. I also think I spend excessive time faffing around on stuff like peeling onions/garlic or keeping a pile of batons from getting squirrelly while dicing.

 

[Delat]

Pretty tame compared to how I do it.

Double rock chop is hella fun. I’ve been working on it all year and still suck at it, but having something to work on is half the fun.

 

[Rangen]

All of my claims to having any skill at all are about Chinese-style cleavers. Want a lot of reasonably uniform slices of something, very rapidly? I can do that. I can even match the speed in Stringer's video above, not with a knife, no way, but with a cleaver -- or with two cleavers, if the mass of things to be chopped is large enough. If you have never chopped up a mess of stuff with two cleavers, well, there's an experience waiting for you. It's like drumming.

It has carried over to knives only in the sense of precision, not speed. I was at a friend's house, and the (actual) chef preparing things asked me to make some thin slices of bread, for something to go on top of. I was very proud at his astonishment at the uniformity of the slices.

In a way, I have no skills. No schooling at all. But I have learned to do a few things, by pure cussed endless repetition.

 

[simona]

everything wrong in a single space....

 

[Barmoley]

Interesting phenomena, basically a vicious circle, people learn to cut with thicker, blunter knives, so use more force and techniques that work for that. Then get thinner, harder, sharper knives, use the same force and techniques so break the edges. Then go back to the original types of knives because they see no benefit in "better" knives. It makes sense too, because in such situations potentially more difficult sharpening experience doesn't offset increase in performance.

 

[coxhaus]

I know how to cut stuff I cook. I am no pro. I also hunted and fished all my life, so I have those skills also. When I don't know I have a reference book on knife skills to look them up. It has easy to use pictures as in the example I posted below.
And of course, I can pit an Avocado with a 10-inch chef's knife.

 

[stringer]

Interesting phenomena, basically a vicious circle, people learn to cut with thicker, blunter knives, so use more force and techniques that work for that. Then get thinner, harder, sharper knives, use the same force and techniques so break the edges. Then go back to the original types of knives because they see no benefit in "better" knives. It makes sense too, because in such situations potentially more difficult sharpening experience doesn't offset increase in performance.

Not really my experience at all. Sure, there will always be some old wet blanket that is set in their ways. But in every kitchen I've ever worked in, most people find the harder thinner sharper Japanese knives a revelation. The cooks don't all go out and buy them because they have kids and bills and puny paychecks. But the old Kanehide beaters that I leave on the prep table for folks to use are always the knives that get used the most. I leave the microbevel a little conservative for those with developing skills and bad habits. And the Japanese knives are far far easier to sharpen and maintain than restaurant supply stainless. Even if you do get some damage here and there.

 

[Barmoley]

Not really my experience at all. Sure, there will always be some old wet blanket that is set in their ways. But in every kitchen I've ever worked in, most people find the harder thinner sharper Japanese knives a revelation. The cooks don't all go out and buy them because they have kids and bills and puny paychecks. But the old Kanehide beaters that I leave on the prep table for folks to use are always the knives that get used the most. I leave the microbevel a little conservative for those with developing skills and bad habits. And the Japanese knives are far far easier to sharpen and maintain than restaurant supply stainless. Even if you do get some damage here and there.

Just going by the replies, comments and general sense of many saying they don't need or don't see benefits from higher carbide steels.

 

[stringer]

Just going by the replies, comments and general sense of many saying they don't need or don't see benefits from higher carbide steels.

I think it's a pretty big leap of logic to conclude that the reason why there aren't more high carbide knives being used in professional kitchens is because the cooks tried to use them but broke them and went back to their other knives. I also think sometimes knife people have really arrogant and pretentious attitudes about the "proper" way to use knives that is really condescending to people who make their living using knives.
The main reason why you don't see more high carbide knives in pro kitchens is because once your tool is good enough, spending any more resources and dollars on it to chase incremental improvements is foolhardy. As high carbide knives become less rare and less expensive and more mainstream then you will see more professionals adopting them. I might even try one someday.

 

[Barmoley]

I think it's a pretty big leap of logic to conclude that the reason why there aren't more high carbide knives being used in professional kitchens is because the cooks tried to use them but broke them and went back to their other knives. I also think sometimes knife people have really arrogant and pretentious attitudes about the "proper" way to use knives that is really condescending to people who make their living using knives.
The main reason why you don't see more high carbide knives in pro kitchens is because once your tool is good enough, spending any more resources and dollars on it to chase incremental improvements is foolhardy. As high carbide knives become less rare and less expensive and more mainstream then you will see more professionals adopting them. I might even try one someday.

I think you are reading into what I wrote, it was just an observation and not a judgement call on any sort of proper way of using knives or which knives to use. As a non pro I would not recommend a pro what to use as I haven't. If the tool works for you then there is absolutely no reason to get anything else. Moreover, my comment was not targeted at pros, just a general observation of many cooks of all levels as I've seen many times over the years. Many go back to using the knives they were used to even after using arguably better knives. The reasons given most of the time are that the "better" knives don't give them enough of a benefit to matter, especially if they have to change their technique or baby the knives. Even more so if they need to change how they sharpen them. Bottom line is my comment was not about professional kitchens, so I am at a loss what caused your response.

 

[stringer]

I think you are reading into what I wrote, it was just an observation and not a judgement call on any sort of proper way of using knives or which knives to use. As a non pro I would not recommend a pro what to use as I haven't. If the tool works for you then there is absolutely no reason to get anything else. Moreover, my comment was not targeted at pros, just a general observation of many cooks of all levels as I've seen many times over the years. Many go back to using the knives they were used to even after using arguably better knives. The reasons given most of the time are that the "better" knives don't give them enough of a benefit to matter, especially if they have to change their technique or baby the knives. Even more so if they need to change how they sharpen them. Bottom line is my comment was not about professional kitchens, so I am at a loss what caused your response.

Sorry. I'm probably reading too much into what you said because of some of the other comments and replies in the thread.

 

[jedy617]

To piggyback onto the discussion of PM steels, honestly, I think Magnacut would be the perfect steels for pros. Practically rust proof (enough to be put in spydercos salt series), high toughness so no need to worry about babying them, way higher edge retention than carbon, while also being able to hold a relatively fine edge for awhile. I know people like carbon because they can touch it up quickly, but I think having 50-100% more retention than most standard carbons...it should last a service without a touch up. Only caveat being is getting a diamond/cbn stone or two.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Just going by the replies, comments and general sense of many saying they don't need or don't see benefits from higher carbide steels.

I can only speak for myself, and my reason is kind of iconoclastic… since I learned to cut and cook with sharp thin knives, I am used to always starting with a fresh off the stones edge. So something that stays 85% sharp for weeks isn’t really any bonus to me because I’ll feel the need to touch it up before it gets even down that far. sharp enough isn’t sharp enough, if only because after a little while of doing it that way that’s what my muscle memory and feedback is attuned to.

 

[Barmoley]

I can only speak for myself, and my reason is kind of iconoclastic… since I learned to cut and cook with sharp thin knives, I am used to always starting with a fresh off the stones edge. So something that stays 85% sharp for weeks isn’t really any bonus to me because I’ll feel the need to touch it up before it gets even down that far. sharp enough isn’t sharp enough, if only because after a little while of doing it that way that’s what my muscle memory and feedback is attuned to.

That is fair even though higher alloyed steels should still keep higher sharpness edge longer. So something like MagnaCut should have fresh off the stone sharpness longer than AEB-L assuming both were sharpened to equal sharpness using appropriate tools and all else, meaning geometry and the rest being equal. In my personal experience this indeed is the case and there were a few tests done to show that it is the case. Of course, experiences differ and I don’t know what is going on in pro environments.

 

[MowgFace]

Interesting phenomena, basically a vicious circle, people learn to cut with thicker, blunter knives, so use more force and techniques that work for that. Then get thinner, harder, sharper knives, use the same force and techniques so break the edges. Then go back to the original types of knives because they see no benefit in "better" knives. It makes sense too, because in such situations potentially more difficult sharpening experience doesn't offset increase in performance.

This is very interesting. I could see the logic, just haven’t seen this in my experience.

I am the bringer of nice knives to my friends and every single one of them made the pilgrimage to Japanese knives with no complaints. I just fix the random chip when they arise.

 

[Leo Barr]

 

[chefwp]

If your fingers are long enough you can slowly straighten them allowing the blade to move along laterally and smoothly, and then when they are at their limit, tuck your fingertips back and repeat; you can sort of do this with your three middles (index, middle, ring), meanwhile ease back your pinky and thumb so your product doesn't lose form and spread out. A taller blade will make this easier for some.

I was thinking about this again a minute ago when making a carrot into brunoise. This answer I gave bugs me, I don't like it, I'm sorry. I described it very poorly. It isn't really 'slowly straighten your fingers,' it's more like 'slowly move your claw hand/wrist away from the knife until you last knuckle is almost straight, then tuck your fingertips back so your second knuckle is against the blade again.' It is so much easier to show you in the same room!! Sorry for any confusion, I hope I didn't make it more confusing just now.