Wa vs Western handle

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timebard said:
I've been meaning to write up some thoughts on hidden tang westerns but in brief, I think they're underrated and wish they were more common. They combine the lighter weight of a wa handle with the ergonomic shape of westerns in a way that gives the best of both worlds as well as an elegant aesthetic. Two nice ones from Herde (L) and Goldeband:

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The idea behind the Nogent. The oldest ones though were easily replaceable.
Light, allowing a strong forward balance and surprising comfortable in spite of their blocky appearance.
 
For me, the Wa handle has the advantage, whether with a Western blade, or with a JP blade. I like a weight forward knife, which is one reason all my knives have Magnolia Wa handles. But I am also a pinch-gripper...
 
Lol... So much fun!!!

I've never heard it called pinch grip before coming here. This method was taught the first day of culinary school and the instructor went around the room to make sure each student was holding their knife "correctly". It's the #1 knife safety rule.. #2 is to keep the tip on the board. These 2 rules provide knife control and prevent stitches. I have to think it's even more critical when using a knife that's sharp enough to remove a hand/finger in 1 stroke.

Is there a thread on here for hospital visits? Or do we keep that to ourselves?

I've cut the tip of my thumb off twice. Once was 3 weeks into culinary school, the day before the knife skills test. I remember it like it was yesterday. Second time I was cocky and flying through zucchini, not respecting the "keep the tip on the board" rule. That was about 3 years after culinary school. Knock on wood, I haven't needed stitches in the last 27 years.
 
You're getting dangerously close to a discussion on rock chopping vs push cuts. And life without tangents would be boring.

You learned rock chopping in culinary school, (tip on board), probably the preferred method most western cooks. Most cooks here will gravitate towards push cutting or "thrust" cuts and find it more effective. Jon has a good video about thrust technique at:

Knife Skills Videos

I'm not suggesting you need to relearn technique but it's something to be aware of. Knives with a curve profile or a bit of belly will lend themselves to rocking. Flatter profiles lend themselves to push cuts.

IRT handles, I like the octagon wa for knives where I'll change grip frequently as I work through something. I like the "D" handle on yanagiba and deba where it helps hold the knife in one position. As others have mentioned the lighter weight wa keeps more of the weight forward. Westerns can be fine on the right knife.
 
daveb said:
You're getting dangerously close to a discussion on rock chopping vs push cuts. And life without tangents would be boring.

You learned rock chopping in culinary school, (tip on board), probably the preferred method most western cooks. Most cooks here will gravitate towards push cutting or "thrust" cuts and find it more effective. Jon has a good video about thrust technique at:

Knife Skills Videos

I'm not suggesting you need to relearn technique but it's something to be aware of. Knives with a curve profile or a bit of belly will lend themselves to rocking. Flatter profiles lend themselves to push cuts.

IRT handles, I like the octagon wa for knives where I'll change grip frequently as I work through something. I like the "D" handle on yanagiba and deba where it helps hold the knife in one position. As others have mentioned the lighter weight wa keeps more of the weight forward. Westerns can be fine on the right knife.
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On the contrary, "tip on the board" IS a push cut. You start with the tip then push forward following the curvature of the blade.
Edit: it's not an up and down motion, as you described.

Maybe you've watched too many amateur chefs do this incorrectly??

I can't count the number of cooks who couldn't cut scallions because they chop. Most of them culinary school grads.

Chopping was taught as "tips of fingers resting on top of the blade near the tip and other hand holding handle". Knife is basically parallel to your body... Such as when chopping onions or garlic.

Rock chopping resulted in a large metal spoon being slammed on the metal table beside you!
 
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BrokenChef said:
I'm curious to hear from others who spent a long time using a Western handle, then got a wa handle.

Did you have a hard time adjusting?

Is there really that much of a difference?

I'm trying to narrow down what my first purchase will be, and the handle is one of the big differences - so it seems to me.

I'm also more of a Rosewood kids guy and most of the way handles just look like octagonal broom sticks (to me).

I'm more of a Kamon handle guy, but even some of his aren't exactly traditional westerns.

Open to thoughts, comments, experiences on every handle out there!

Thanks!!!
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As a home cook developing my own personal batterie of knives, I started with a Wusthof Classic Ikon Chef knife as a foundational knife: it felt comfortable, had only a partial bolster, and, unlike the classic, didn't have a butt sticking out. That way, I could slide up to a pinch grip to slice, and back to a badminton grip to chop.

That became my mental mantra--and I've never bought a kitchen knife with the butt sticking out. The octagonal or oval Japanese knife worked best for me with a half bolster and an internal full tang connecting to an end cap. Adding a bulge for ergonomics inhibited my slide--but a gripping edge was a great idea for right handed users--except I was a lefty. A Shun Kaji santoku hallow ground met my requirements perfectly--hollow ground in sg-2.

Japanese artisan knives bother me with their rat tail tangs that fail to connect all the way through the handle and lack of a half bolster--but I don't rule them out. Westernized Japanese knives insist on including that dreaded butt--and remove themselves from consideration for quirky me.
 
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BrokenChef said:
On the contrary, "tip on the board" IS a push cut. You start with the tip then push forward following the curvature of the blade.
Edit: it's not an up and down motion, as you described.

Maybe you've watched too many amateur chefs do this incorrectly??

I can't count the number of cooks who couldn't cut scallions because they chop. Most of them culinary school grads.

Chopping was taught as "tips of fingers resting on top of the blade near the tip and other hand holding handle". Knife is basically parallel to your body... Such as when chopping onions or garlic.

Rock chopping resulted in a large metal spoon being slammed on the metal table beside you!
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@BrokenChef can you find a video demonstration of this tip on the board push cut you’re talking about?
It’s pretty universally understood atleast I thought it was what a push cut means.
Couldn’t imagine any benefit to using the tip in contact with the board for this.
 
jedy617 said:
Ditto



🤣
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BrokenChef said:
I saw that, except what he described as typical Western methods is not how I was taught. My knife stays in one place, no dragging the tip across the board. Sure it moves a bit, but the idea is that it never leaves the center of the board while cutting.

What Jon and you are describing as typical western methods is a very common mistake made by many, maybe even most cooks/chefs, not just amateurs. I was trying to be light hearted and not insult too many people, lol

I can see how the knife he is using lends itself to a different technique, because the tip is high in comparison to a gyuto. I am not versed in J knives one bit. Never found the need to. This is purely out of curiosity and for fun.

And I can see how a delicate blade would be prone to chipping/breaking, but what percentage of chefs use that fine of a blade in a commercial setting? Of the few people I worked with who used J knives, they used a santoku or cleaver. Perhaps in Japan and some fine dining establishments those thin blades are used...?? But I have to think that in the majority of commercial kitchens, a heaftier blade is used. In my experience, the percentage of every day restaurants far exceeds fine dining or sushi joints... At least here in the US, I can't speak for any other countries. My kids ate up the funds I planned to use to go overseas with in preparation for the CMC certification.

We didn't have different knives for different tasks. Pretty much 3 knives for "prep" - chef, filet, paring. Chef knife is used as utility and vegetable.

Working at the heel provides better leverage for say, carrots but we were taught to use the entire blade, based on what we are cutting. Tip for mushrooms, middle for soft foods, heel for hard foods.

I found the length of the blade and height of the person using it makes a difference as well. A shorter person is not as easily able to lift the heel of a knife high enough while keeping the tip on the board, and a longer blade gives the same power/leverage in the middle as a shorter blade at the heel.

Thrust cut/push cut, call it what you will.. that's how I was taught by what was 1 of 37 Certified Master Chefs (CMC) in the US at that time.. Dieter Keissling - I prob misspelled that. I believe that's a Western thing.. do they have chef/cook certifications in other countries?

The Culinary Institute of America (CIA) has produced hundreds of thousands of chefs and you'll find more CMC's in their employ than the rest of the US combined.

I can assure you that every one of their graduates were trained to keep the tip of the knife on the board and thrust/push cut. I can say that I never ran into another CIA grad who couldn't cut scallions, though. There are plenty (probably thousands) of fast track culinary schools here who will accept anyone and push them through to collect tuition. CIA requires (or at least used to) experience and recommendations from a professionally trained chef to have any hope of attending. And they had no issues throwing people out for their inability to perform. That place was like a military school.

CIA was the first, and are still perhaps the only, school to offer a Master's degree in this field. I've not been up on that stuff for years. I intended to become a CMC, but stopped at Cert Exec Chef because I had kids and decided to devote my spare time to them rather than the CMC. My obsession with becoming a CMC was destroying my marriage and my kids barely knew me. I never even did the recertification for CEC. I stopped paying dues and completely removed myself from that aspect to save my marriage.

This brings up a question. And I do not mean to insult anyone, I'm speaking purely from my experiences, and my questions are genuine...

Because Asians tend to be, how do I say this kindly..."vertically challenged".. even that doesn't sound kind, but I mean it with the kindest intent. I wonder if work tables are lower to the ground, and I wonder if being shorter in statute lends itself to different methods. Mind you, I'm only 5'8".. not exactly tall by Western standards. I have noticed that people taller than me tend to be a bit more comfortable with a knife at the standard work tables, while those over 6' tend to have to crouch over the table, and those under, say 5'5", struggle significantly.

Again, I do not intend to insult anyone and view this as a gentleman's conversation. I speak purely from my experience, or even lack thereof.

One of the biggest drawbacks to chatting online is the inability to distinguish tone!
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Sounds like you are talking about guillotine and glide. Also as a 5’11 Asian lol
 
BrokenChef said:
I speak purely from my experience, or even lack thereof.
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This close to self awareness!

BrokenChef said:
#2 is to keep the tip on the board
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BrokenChef said:
I can't count the number of cooks who couldn't cut scallions because they chop.
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Jokes on you, I use a nakiri so: 1) no tip and 2) I "chop" (what most here would call a push cut). I'm quite confident in my ability to produce uniform, clean scallions and chives.


Needling aside, @BrokenChef, you've found yourself in a forum filled with knife nerds, not pro cooks. That said, there are plenty of us here who are also cooks ranging from quick service (Hi!) to hotel banquets to the highest levels of fine dining and covering absolutely everything in between - I'd caution you not to be so bold as to assume that you can cook circles around someone here just because they aren't throwing out fancy acronyms and degrees. The blades we tend to favor require different techniques than what you're describing. Just like you shouldn't drive a Ferrari the same way that you would a Prius, you can't guillotine & glide or rock chop an aogami super laser the way that you would big ole Whustof. That's not to say that everyone here has superb knife skills (they don't) or that the methods & blades used here guarantee good results (again, they don't), but we gravitate towards the knives that we do and the methods that go with them for a reason.
 
WOW!

I'm not here to argue with anyone. Simply stated my life experience and views.

I thought I asked genuine questions, things I'm truly interested in knowing.

I guess "no offense intended" = most definitely take this as a personal attack.

I have no desire to fight with anyone.

Forgive me for telling the parts of my life I'm proud of. I left out the part of my life that led to my screen name, not looking to make people feel bad, so I'll just take that down and move along.

I went into this industry to make people happy, not make enemies.
 
BrokenChef said:
WOW!

I'm not here to argue with anyone. Simply stated my life experience and views.

I thought I asked genuine questions, things I'm truly interested in knowing.

I guess "no offense intended" = most definitely take this as a personal attack.

I have no desire to fight with anyone.

Forgive me for telling the parts of my life I'm proud of. I left out the part of my life that led to my screen name, not looking to make people feel bad, so I'll just take that down and move along.

I went into this industry to make people happy, not make enemies
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I, for one, found your comments interesting and in no way condescending. You strike me as a sincerely nice guy with obviously a fair bit of experience. Some folks can't handle differences of experience and opinion.

My .02, please stick around and continue to do you!
 
Never had an issue; the weight and blade profile of a 240 gyuto with a wa handle all feel like they work well together. It encouraged me to use a push cutting technique immediately.

When I gave my son the choice for his knife, he chose to go with a 210 western. It is a nice knife that does feel really good as well.
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bradmacmt said:
I, for one, found your comments interesting and in no way condescending. You strike me as a sincerely nice guy with obviously a fair bit of experience. Some folks can't handle differences of experience and opinion.

My .02, please stick around and continue to do you!
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Thanks, yeah, I'm not even going to respond to some of the comments. I took it down. Not looking to stir up trouble.
 
ckot said:
Never had an issue; the weight and blade profile of a 240 gyuto with a wa handle all feel like they work well together. It encouraged me to use a push cutting technique immediately.

When I gave my son the choice for his knife, he chose to go with a 210 western. It is a nice knife that does feel really good as well.
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That's gorgeous!!! Your son and I have the same taste in knives. Hammered Damascus is so sexy, lol

What is the handle made of?
Is that a 1 of a kind knife?

I've been somewhat leaning towards the unfinished look and want to try a wa, but that knife just stole my heart.

That's Goldilocks right there!
 
labor of love said:
@BrokenChef can you find a video demonstration of this tip on the board push cut you’re talking about?
It’s pretty universally understood atleast I thought it was what a push cut means.
Couldn’t imagine any benefit to using the tip in contact with the board for this.
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Here ya go... 557k views of a professional chef at a Culinary school vs the 72k views from a knife manufacturer.

 
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