Donobag
Active Member
Looking for a fine stone for high carbon steels but keen to get an idea of what everybody likes.
6k-8k Stone Preferences
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M1k3
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BBW or Coticule
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Consider the Shapton Pro 12k as well. It delivers quite a nice mix.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Of the list I only own the Naniwa Pro 5k and Arashiyama 6k and I vastly prefer the latter. Generally like all the other Naniwa pro stones, but the 5k is just weird. It goes dry easily, has no feedback, goes gummy... it's like rubbijng on a black box.
Donobag
Active Member
What do you like about these that the above don’t offer?
Donobag
Active Member
Hmm, I’m tempted to go nuts with it just for the sake of it (kind of abandoning practicality) and consider some 12-16k, but I think that’s a quest for later.
Do you want to highly polish your edges or have a refine edge with teeth ?
First I would go Naniwa super 5k or 8k (5k is fine enough)
Second I would go to a naturals, BBW or Coticule is good advise, those stones are great and a big BBW is about 80 euros. But I feel a BBW is maybe 4k at best and coticule is 6k at best. A good Jnat big enough koppa (to reach the 8k) can be find for about 150/200 euros. With synthetic, maybe a imanishi/kitayama 8k.
I got the morihei 8k.. not impressed, it is quite slow and finish is not amazing. Work a bit like bester 8k but it is much more expensive.
Personnaly, I like the Naniwa 5k and I am ok with the feeling (which is close to naniwa super stones), it is gummy a little but that stone is fast and give a great finish. Compared to a Naniwa super, it will be a faster stone, no clogging, less fine at same grit.
First I would go Naniwa super 5k or 8k (5k is fine enough)
Second I would go to a naturals, BBW or Coticule is good advise, those stones are great and a big BBW is about 80 euros. But I feel a BBW is maybe 4k at best and coticule is 6k at best. A good Jnat big enough koppa (to reach the 8k) can be find for about 150/200 euros. With synthetic, maybe a imanishi/kitayama 8k.
I got the morihei 8k.. not impressed, it is quite slow and finish is not amazing. Work a bit like bester 8k but it is much more expensive.
Personnaly, I like the Naniwa 5k and I am ok with the feeling (which is close to naniwa super stones), it is gummy a little but that stone is fast and give a great finish. Compared to a Naniwa super, it will be a faster stone, no clogging, less fine at same grit.
Donobag
Active Member
I want to have a really refined edge that's good for cutting, but happy if it doubles as a polisher when thinning. Currently my highest stone is a Shapton Pro 5k and while I get good results with it, it's not amazing to use and maybe not as fine as I'd like.
I'm interested in naturals but that's a bit of a wormhole so I'd like to go synthetic to start. I know everyone has an opinion, so I thought I'd just see what the consensus is.
Gesshin 6k blue speckle
M1k3
Senior Member
They feel nice to use. The edges they produce give a nice bite, while being somewhat refined.
Kawa
Senior Member
Kitayama 8000
It's not in your list. I havent seen a kitayama 6000, so I think its a typo. Arashiyama is 6000 and looks from the same series.
The kitayama 8000 is cheap, does do a good job polishing if you like and also still has some good initial bite off the stone.
I think there is some 'mixed gritt' in the stone, to simulate a kind of natural stone feeling/result.
I also have and use a BBW.
The BBW does polish slightly less (have yet to compare some bigger surface to really look for scratch pattern differences, hard to compare on only a 1mm edge) but has more bite to it. More important, my knives seem to hold a sharper edge way longer of the BBW then of the kitayama. After some while, you loose the bite from a kitayama and end up with a slick cutting edge.
It's doesnt go slick fast, but after using a BBW you notice the difference.
So, the kitayama gives me a little bit more initial sharpness of the stone (BESS score is lower), but the edge degrades a fair amount faster (still good enough for home use).
Having both, I can say I still want both (big enough difference).
If I have to advice one to you, I'd say go kitayama. If i read your wishes correclty, you want to explore the really high end gritts, just for fun. The kitayama suits that goal better.
And sooner or later, we all add a BBW to our collection anyway
It's not in your list. I havent seen a kitayama 6000, so I think its a typo. Arashiyama is 6000 and looks from the same series.
The kitayama 8000 is cheap, does do a good job polishing if you like and also still has some good initial bite off the stone.
I think there is some 'mixed gritt' in the stone, to simulate a kind of natural stone feeling/result.
I also have and use a BBW.
The BBW does polish slightly less (have yet to compare some bigger surface to really look for scratch pattern differences, hard to compare on only a 1mm edge) but has more bite to it. More important, my knives seem to hold a sharper edge way longer of the BBW then of the kitayama. After some while, you loose the bite from a kitayama and end up with a slick cutting edge.
It's doesnt go slick fast, but after using a BBW you notice the difference.
So, the kitayama gives me a little bit more initial sharpness of the stone (BESS score is lower), but the edge degrades a fair amount faster (still good enough for home use).
Having both, I can say I still want both (big enough difference).
If I have to advice one to you, I'd say go kitayama. If i read your wishes correclty, you want to explore the really high end gritts, just for fun. The kitayama suits that goal better.
And sooner or later, we all add a BBW to our collection anyway
BBW or Arkansas Black. Lately it's been a lot of Arkansas Black.
I've had some really nice edges from the Shapton Glass 6K. The Shapton Pro 12K I've only used like a strop and it has refined edges nicely, and I just got the Shapton Glass 8K so I'm still needing to experiment with it.
The Shapton Pro 12K is a very nice 7K stone. The stone by itself when sold without the box is priced quite nicely too.
The Naniwa Falcon / Hayabusa 4K finishes equivalent to about a 6K stone. Excellent value too. The Naniwa Fuji 8K finishes about 10K. Great stone too. Only down side to these is that the edges are very refined and smooth. Great for straight razors, maybe not enough tooth for some on knives.
My G6K is a soaker and, is my rec for high end sharpening of quality steel. Use it mostly for singles, prefer the G4K for gyuto, petty, et al. Not a speck on it's lilly white butt though.
Dan-
Senior Member
my picks aren’t on your list: Shapton glass 8k or j-nat
MowgFace
Senior Member
+1
Another vote for the Gesshin 6K resinoid (blue speckled). Jon at JKI told me it is one of his absolute favorite stones, and that says a lot. I like mine very much.
You should buy this. Very good deal
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/gesshin-6k-resinoid-blue-speckle-morihei-9k-karasu.64369/
You should buy this. Very good deal
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/gesshin-6k-resinoid-blue-speckle-morihei-9k-karasu.64369/
Steampunk
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What sorts of knives/steels are you trying to work on, and what are you cutting with them? Wide/single bevels vs. monosteel? 10xx / Shirogami vs. Aogami / 1.2562, etc? Making salsa vs. sashimi, etc?
I ask this, as no stone behaves consistently on all steel alloys/hardness's... Edge bevel sharpening typically has different needs than wide bevel polishing, and wide bevel polishing has different needs than monosteel polishing. Furthermore, some steels plateau at higher grits than others in practical use, and some ingredients respond to certain edges better than others.
In terms of the debate between synthetic vs. natural finishing stones... Honestly, I've spent a lot of time and money chasing both. As I said, no single stone behaves the same way on all knives, for all jobs, whether it was made in the ground or made in a factory. Sometimes, you can get a single natural stone that's actually more practical and effective for a job than a synth (Or collection of synths), and other times not... The main difference is, there's more sample variation with natural stones. One person might have a bit of a dud Coti that's a bit of a doorstop. Another might have one that peaks out closer to 15K. I know, because I have both, and various in between. However, my 6K Cerax, is probably the same as the one you'd buy anywhere in the world, from any seller.
Your needs are specific. A popularity contest isn't the way to find what you need.
From your list, I've got the Cerax 6K, and used to own a Shapton Pro 5K & 8K. I also have a Naniwa Chosera/Pro 10K, which could probably pick up from your Shapton Pro 5K without a lot of problem.
The Suehiro Cerax 6K (Orange) is a pretty well balanced stone. It's a soaker, but not a fussy one. It's a good compromise in many situations, but at the same time, is seldom the stone I'd pick if I was searching for a specific area of performance... 6K synths at their best, are trying to be balanced at everything for kitchen applications, but are starting to make some compromises. It can create a halfway decent polish with a bit of pressure on hardened steel, and a pretty okay haze on some claddings. It's in sort of a goldilox zone for hardness... Not horrible for dishing, or flattening, and only starts to convex edges on fairly soft steels. At its best, it's not a horrible edge, or finish, but it's almost never the final destination I was searching for. A sort of jack-of-all-trades, master of none... However, if that's what you're looking for, it's not a bad stone at all. I maybe made it sound worse than it actually is.
For me, the Shapton Pro 5K is a good transition stone on woodworking tools or straight razors, and the Shapton Pro 8K is a good pre-finisher for either of the aforementioned... Neither are happy places for me with kitchen knives. Very consistent, but bland edges for their grit. Horrible for polishing wide/single bevels. Too hard, no contrast... If you're not happy with your SP 5K in the kitchen, I actually probably recommend to step down to the Shapton 4K GS HR for edges. It's a nicer balance of tooth and polish. Hard, so you get a nice, crisp bevel, still. Not as slippery as the SP 5K, so you can maintain that bevel a bit better freehand.
The Naniwa Chosera/Pro 10K (Closest I can reference to the Naniwa Snow White 8K.) is an interesting stone... Very fast cutting for its grit. Can pick up from a 5-6K stone no problem. Bad finish on wide/single bevels... At the same time, this is a synth that's finally starting to get into the finisher range for razors and chisels for me (I.E. push-cutting tools.)... A decent edge for parers used for peeling, and micro-bevel for single-bevels, just barely. Not a great choice on higher-carbide steels (HAP-40, or even Aogami Super.), and sort of overkill for softer/simpler alloys (Like <60hrc 10xx.). However, it's just barely starting to transition you into a different realm of sharpness, where you can cut a tomato not because the edge is 'toothy', but because the apex is starting to get incredibly fine. Afterwards, you start eyeing up Shapton 30K's and sub-micron pastes, trying to find where that sort of edge culminates. It's another rabbit hole...
Hopefully this helps.
I ask this, as no stone behaves consistently on all steel alloys/hardness's... Edge bevel sharpening typically has different needs than wide bevel polishing, and wide bevel polishing has different needs than monosteel polishing. Furthermore, some steels plateau at higher grits than others in practical use, and some ingredients respond to certain edges better than others.
In terms of the debate between synthetic vs. natural finishing stones... Honestly, I've spent a lot of time and money chasing both. As I said, no single stone behaves the same way on all knives, for all jobs, whether it was made in the ground or made in a factory. Sometimes, you can get a single natural stone that's actually more practical and effective for a job than a synth (Or collection of synths), and other times not... The main difference is, there's more sample variation with natural stones. One person might have a bit of a dud Coti that's a bit of a doorstop. Another might have one that peaks out closer to 15K. I know, because I have both, and various in between. However, my 6K Cerax, is probably the same as the one you'd buy anywhere in the world, from any seller.
Your needs are specific. A popularity contest isn't the way to find what you need.
From your list, I've got the Cerax 6K, and used to own a Shapton Pro 5K & 8K. I also have a Naniwa Chosera/Pro 10K, which could probably pick up from your Shapton Pro 5K without a lot of problem.
The Suehiro Cerax 6K (Orange) is a pretty well balanced stone. It's a soaker, but not a fussy one. It's a good compromise in many situations, but at the same time, is seldom the stone I'd pick if I was searching for a specific area of performance... 6K synths at their best, are trying to be balanced at everything for kitchen applications, but are starting to make some compromises. It can create a halfway decent polish with a bit of pressure on hardened steel, and a pretty okay haze on some claddings. It's in sort of a goldilox zone for hardness... Not horrible for dishing, or flattening, and only starts to convex edges on fairly soft steels. At its best, it's not a horrible edge, or finish, but it's almost never the final destination I was searching for. A sort of jack-of-all-trades, master of none... However, if that's what you're looking for, it's not a bad stone at all. I maybe made it sound worse than it actually is.
For me, the Shapton Pro 5K is a good transition stone on woodworking tools or straight razors, and the Shapton Pro 8K is a good pre-finisher for either of the aforementioned... Neither are happy places for me with kitchen knives. Very consistent, but bland edges for their grit. Horrible for polishing wide/single bevels. Too hard, no contrast... If you're not happy with your SP 5K in the kitchen, I actually probably recommend to step down to the Shapton 4K GS HR for edges. It's a nicer balance of tooth and polish. Hard, so you get a nice, crisp bevel, still. Not as slippery as the SP 5K, so you can maintain that bevel a bit better freehand.
The Naniwa Chosera/Pro 10K (Closest I can reference to the Naniwa Snow White 8K.) is an interesting stone... Very fast cutting for its grit. Can pick up from a 5-6K stone no problem. Bad finish on wide/single bevels... At the same time, this is a synth that's finally starting to get into the finisher range for razors and chisels for me (I.E. push-cutting tools.)... A decent edge for parers used for peeling, and micro-bevel for single-bevels, just barely. Not a great choice on higher-carbide steels (HAP-40, or even Aogami Super.), and sort of overkill for softer/simpler alloys (Like <60hrc 10xx.). However, it's just barely starting to transition you into a different realm of sharpness, where you can cut a tomato not because the edge is 'toothy', but because the apex is starting to get incredibly fine. Afterwards, you start eyeing up Shapton 30K's and sub-micron pastes, trying to find where that sort of edge culminates. It's another rabbit hole...
Hopefully this helps.
My BBW is definitely not 4k. It’s more like 6k which is one of the reason I got disappointed with it at first.
The great thing about BBW for me is that it’s super easy to use and it’s the stone I have that deburrs carbon steel the best. For someone looking for a finisher of 6k this is the only stone I would recommend. I have other 6k stones like the arashiyama and it’s rubbish compared to the BBW: loads and the edge lacks bite.
The great thing about BBW for me is that it’s super easy to use and it’s the stone I have that deburrs carbon steel the best. For someone looking for a finisher of 6k this is the only stone I would recommend. I have other 6k stones like the arashiyama and it’s rubbish compared to the BBW: loads and the edge lacks bite.
Donobag
Active Member
Wow, thanks for the thoughtful and informative response.
It will be a variety of steels, not just of my own collection, as I am sharpening for other people too which is why I was looking for a general opinion. That said, I’m not looking for the perfect stone for all jobs, just looking for somewhere to start while I expand my collection and start branching out from the series of SPs I have, perhaps doubling as finishing stone after thinning. I know my next ones won’t be the last stones I buy.
Steampunk
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I'd probably look at a 6K Cerax, if this is the case, and you don't mind a soaker... It's as close to versatile as such a stone can get, out of what I've tried from your list. Relatively fast cutter on a mix of steels. Polishes, but not the best polisher. Creates some contrast if you know what you're doing, but it wouldn't be my first choice for this either. As I said the edge is typically alright, but you can get a lot better with more specific stone/knife combos... Definitely wouldn't be my choice for woodworking tools (Doesn't stay flat enough.), or razors (Grit not consistent enough.).
I'd also suggest looking at some 1-micron diamond paste/spray, and a balsa or maple strop. It's a pretty cheap way to play around with higher grit edges, and using it after a mid-grit stone can sometimes give you a good hybrid edge for certain things.
Hope this helps.
Choppin
Senior Member
+1 vote for Gesshin 6k resinoid. Fantastic for polishing and sharpening.
What does "gummy" mean?
Like you are sharpening on a pencil eraser.
Jnats. A nice coarser nakayama or middle of the road suita would be ideal.
At this grit we’re more or less just playing around, no deeper pool to play/drown in than natural stones
.
I just voted and realized that finishing might mean sharpening...
I don't think I've ever taken a edge above a 4ksih finish (Ouka/Morihei)..
Is a 6k 8k edge beneficial?
I don't think I've ever taken a edge above a 4ksih finish (Ouka/Morihei)..
Is a 6k 8k edge beneficial?
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Opinions here differ, a lot. I think most people probably finish in the 4-6K range for general kitchen knives. You'll certainly want a finer finish if your working as a sushi chef. I tend to like a finer finish than most. I'll tend to finish around 6K, but I dice a lot of apples and like a finer edge for that. A finer finish will have less bite, but it will give a cleaner cut.
M1k3
Senior Member
I used this not that long ago. It does deliver.
