Is Naniwa Chosera 3000 Sufficient For SG2 (R2) - Takamura?

[mrhomecook]

Hi!

Noob question: I have Naniwa Chosera 400/800/3000 stones, are these sufficient (in particular, the 3000) for a Takamura Migaki 210mm Gyuto SG2? Or do I need another stone - if so, what and why?

Context:

• Earlier this year I acquired my first non-German steel knife, a Takamura Migaki 210mm Gyuto. I absolutely love this thing. It has a very thin carve and is an SG2 (R2) powdered steel.
  
• My only experience sharpening knives has been with German steels (Zwilling, Messermeister etc), obviously much softer (perhaps 55-57 HRC). I have sharpened my own knives for about 4 years, usually once every 6 months. I am a home cook.
  
• I am a bit intimidated by sharpening the Takamura (edge is probably good through the end of year). Can I get away with the 3000? The edge is so beautiful that I am slightly terrified at the thought of ruining it.

Any advice appreciated!

Thanks so much

 

[chiffonodd]

You would sharpen gently with the 800 and then finish with the 3k. If you think that the 3K isn't refined enough, you can get like a 6K.

 

[gentiscid]

Should be good enough for sharpening. Keep practicing sharpening on cheaper knives (stainless) to improve your skills (maintaining the angle, controlling the pressure, etc.). Finish on stropping leather and it should be razor sharp.

 

[riba]

I voted 'yes' but at the same time you do want another stone

 

[mrhomecook]

I voted 'yes' but at the same time you do want another stone

Thanks! What stone would that be and why?

 

[mrhomecook]

You would sharpen gently with the 800 and then finish with the 3k. If you think that the 3K isn't refined enough, you can get like a 6K.

Gotcha. I was wondering if the 800 might be too coarse for this steel?

 

[chiffonodd]

Gotcha. I was wondering if the 800 might be too coarse for this steel?

Naw you can always just lighten your pressure and go nice and slow if you feel like it's too aggressive. You'll learn how it cuts with a bit of practice and you'll be able to calibrate your technique.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Gotcha. I was wondering if the 800 might be too coarse for this steel?

There's no such thing as too coarse for a given steel.

The thinness will go a long way to promoting sharpening so it shouldn't take a lot as long as you don't let it go too long. Try some very light edge-leading stropping stokes on the 3k. Just a few passes per side. That should brighten up a slightly dampened edge and give you some feedback and confidence. From there you can do a light "sharpening" on the 3k. Just a few lighter passes to raise a burr and then flip and then deburr.

 

[riba]

Thanks! What stone would that be and why?

I like edges quite refined, like 5-6K. But my nicest r2 edges are when sharpened on a coticule.

 

[Cliff]

You have a great setup -- don't need anything. If I were to get more..., you might consider a Belgian Blue, which will help deburr the R2 steel. They are not terribly expensive

 

[lesslemming]

You have a great setup. The 400 is for really coarse edge work. Like when you have chips or face a neglected knife. The 800 is for the occasional resharpening and maintenance of a knife that is dull. The 3k is fine enough to give excellent edges for kitchen work but fast enough to keep a well cared for (chip free) knife sharp for years. If you don’t do any heavy work with your knife, have a good cutting board, no bones etc. you can keep your knife sharp just with the 3k.

You do not need any other stones than what you already have. That’s not to say you may not want them. And with your setup the world is your oyster. Naturals? Yup. A synth finisher? Betcha. But there is no need whatsoever.

In fact, surprisingly all you really ever need is one stone. I could live with just an 800 or a 1k. It would be a sad life but all my knives would be very sharp indeed.

Bonus:

Get a cheap strop and some polishing paste. If you want hair whittling edges. Again, no real need but it’s cheap and easy to try

 

[mrhomecook]

This has been really helpful. Thank you everyone!

Any recommendations on a strop (and polishing paste)? I'm thinking the 3000 stone and a strop might just be

 

[abarbosa]

This has been really helpful. Thank you everyone!

Any recommendations on a strop (and polishing paste)? I'm thinking the 3000 stone and a strop might just be

I don’t like using a strop with polishing paste on R2. It takes what I like the mist about the steel which is the bite (microscopic irregularities on the edge). My favorite store for R2 is actually the naniwa pro/chosera 3000 you already have.

You can strop on cardboard or leather just to help removing the burr, but don’t over do it.

I think if you really want to buy a stone buy a natural Belgium Blue stone. It’s great for deburring, polishing and much more that I can’t recommend because my skill hasn’t reached that level yet. If you ever have a single bevel knife you can use it for the ura as well.

Great stone and super different than what you have. You do have great stones BTW.

 

[lesslemming]

This has been really helpful. Thank you everyone!

Any recommendations on a strop (and polishing paste)? I'm thinking the 3000 stone and a strop might just be

You can DIY a strop with balsa wood or just microfiber cloth glued to wood. The best thing that works surprisingly well that you can do right now is fold a bit of newspaper, like 3 or 5 layers thick, lay out on something flat and use this as a strop. The abrasives in the paper will work as mild and extremely fine abrasives.
Random demonstration I found on YouTube:



You can also purchase something pre-made. Regarding polishing compound, you can’t really go wrong with any diamond spray or paste in the range of 1micron.

But me personally I also don’t like to use strops for the same reason abarbosa mentioned

 

[Cliff]

A strop is a good idea. I use a basic cowhide and don't bother with paste.

 

[mpier]

Keep in mind the Naniwa Chosera line the 400 is actually a 600 the 600 an 800 the 800 a 1200 or so the 3000 is a 4000 grit and so on. Your set is perfect for R2 but R2 does not cut tomatoes well at the “3000” grit level, I have found going up to 3000 chosera the dropping back down to the 800 or even a 600 with light strokes will cut tomatoes and peppers much better. With that being said you can always test the theory out, also learn to remove the burr on the stones with R2 it’s not hard but like I said R2 doesn’t require to much refinement, less is more.

 

[Benuser]

Major work is to be done with the first stone, whether that's your 400 or the 800. Please note these deliver end results of about 600 and 1200 according to the Japanese standards JIS. A large part of the work with the first stone is in deburring. It requires some skill to perform very light edge leading strokes. You only go to the next stone when the remaining burr only flips without getting any smaller. As for the next stone or stones, I would first try to use them for further deburring only. Perform a few very light strokes along the edge with your finest stone. You should see the burr on the stone. An edge deburred on a NP3k – JIS4k — should offer plenty refinement, with still the bite one is looking for with this kind of steel. I don't think your edge will seriously benefit from any higher grit. They don't solve problems that occurred or were neglected with coarser ones. Opting for a Belgian Blue as a last deburrer can be convenient, but a complete deburring is perfectly possible with the NP3k. That said, in deburring SG‐2 isn't the easiest one.

 

[Nemo]

Yes, Chosera 3k is a great finishing stone for sg2/r2. As suggested above, careful burr reduction and deburring improves an sg2 edge considerably.

I slightly prefer the edge off my Naniwa daimond 6k but I think that this is because of the diamonds, not the grit (I don't prefer an 8k ceramic stone edge to the 3K Chosera). To be clear, you are not going to notice this difference until you have learned to produce a very clean edge free of residual micro burr.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I love a Chosera 800 and 3k for SG2. I've played around with a Shapton Glass 1k in the middle with good results but it's not necessary. I just finish on a loaded strop and am super happy with the edge. Completely analogous to me, but I like a loaded strop for stainless or CPM steels whereas I prefer a regular leather/unloaded for carbon. Feels like I get better bite on my stainless edges for tomaters and peppers finishing on a loaded strop.

Chosera 800 will have no trouble forming a burr on SG2, 3k will be great to touch up it once you get your edge set after first sharpening.

As a @cotedupy disciple I might say a coticule if you're looking for an excuse to get a new stone. Toothy refined edge, but the 3k is just fine and I wouldn't go much higher in grit, but that's my own toothy preferences.

 

[Cliff]

I generally prefer a finer finish than Chosera 3K, but for R2, I agree, it really works perfectly.

 

[mrhomecook]

Thank you, all! Great to hear I don't really need another stone. I've decided I'll just stick with what I have for now!

While on this thread, though, a few comments were made (hinting that there may be an optional room for improvement down the line) - something like a "finishing stone" (not sure if this is the term)?

• I slightly prefer the edge off my Naniwa daimond 6k but I think that this is because of the diamonds, not the grit (I don't prefer an 8k ceramic stone edge to the 3K Chosera).
• I generally prefer a finer finish than Chosera 3K, but for R2, I agree, it really works perfectly.
• you might consider a Belgian Blue

Etc. The store I bought it from actually recommended a ceramic stone. What would be the differences/trade-offs here of Diamond vs. Ceramic vs. Blue Stone / Coticule? Particularly in the context of finishing the knife sharpening process - I'd like something close to what came from factory (I can't imagine I'd be capable of achieving nicer edge).

Thanks and happy Labor Day!

 

[Cliff]

Resin-bonded diamond stones like the Naniwa 6K will do a better job than anything else, but they are expensive. They will leave a polished and toothy edge rather than just burnishing.

Among standard stones, ceramic will, I believe, typically be faster and work better for R2 than others.

Belgian Blue is a natural stone. It's pretty affordable and has the particular virtue of being about the best stone there is for deburring, which is especially tricky with R2.

 

[lesslemming]

“Finishing stone” is a perfectly fine term.
You don’t need it unless you’d like to be one of us fellows, who wear their pants on their heads

I also have a Naniwa 6k diamond resin bonded stone and can attest to its qualities. I can also attest to dozens of other stones that would also work just fine!

A finishing stone is not required nor helpful unless you already get superb edges with let’s say a 1k or a 3k stone. Sounds counter intuitive, right? Why get another stone when I am supposed to get great results without it…

Well, most stones that people buy are bought because they like them, not because they need them. So if you have money to spare and would like to start a new hobby, your options for finishers are:

- resin bonded diamonds in the range of 6k. Nice but Uber expensive.
- any other sharpening stone in the range of 6-8k. The Chosera 5k is also nice if you like to stay in the same brand.
- natural stones. Belgian blue are great and not expensive. Japanese naturals are basically an art form

 

[JustAnotherJoe]

There is a lot of confusion around the term "ceramic". Generally people talking about sharpening mean one of two things

1: a japanese style whetstone (bonded abrasive) where the abrasive particles, typically aluminium oxide and/or silicon carbide, are bound together with a ceramic. Think of as if you mixed silicon carbide grit into terracotta clay and fired it.

2: a piece of solid ceramic, typically aluminium oxide. Here the aluminium oxide is sintered/bonded with it's self. Commonly in the form of a honing rod/butcher steel, but can be found in any size and shape. These do not break down exposing new fresh discreet abrasives, as sintered aluminum oxide is pretty strong.

The second meaning is often not recomended for steels that lack toughness, like steels with high carbide volumes or hard plain carbon steels, as ceramic butcher steels/honing rods can cause the edge to microchip due to the high stresses that adhesive wear requires to work. I think sintered ceramic benchstones get a bad reputation due to thier relation to ceramic honing rods/butcher steels and a lack of knowledge on how to use them.

Oh, and just to add to the ceramic confusion in engineering/science ceramics are considered to not just be inorganic crystalline carbides/oxides/nitrides, but any material that behaves as a ceramic. That includes diamonds.... CHAOS, MUHAHHAA!

 

[mrhomecook]

Super informative - thank you everyone.

BTW - are there really any better knives than a Takamura R2 Gyuto? I've been cooking for 15 years and struggle to imagine how it could be improved.

Anyway - back to work tomorrow. Have a good evening folks!

 

[mpier]

Wow, and down the rabbit hole you go. Ya there is better, there is worse and everything in between. Find your way grasshopper and explore that’s way we are all here!!!

 

[sumis]

appreciate this thread. i have a takamura r2 petty that is a ***** to get to my desired sharpness, and i can’t tell why really. obviously a user error, but for instance, i have a kei kobayashi r2 that very willingly takes a great edge

.

 

[Nemo]

Thank you, all! Great to hear I don't really need another stone. I've decided I'll just stick with what I have for now!

While on this thread, though, a few comments were made (hinting that there may be an optional room for improvement down the line) - something like a "finishing stone" (not sure if this is the term)?

• I slightly prefer the edge off my Naniwa daimond 6k but I think that this is because of the diamonds, not the grit (I don't prefer an 8k ceramic stone edge to the 3K Chosera).
• I generally prefer a finer finish than Chosera 3K, but for R2, I agree, it really works perfectly.
• you might consider a Belgian Blue

Etc. The store I bought it from actually recommended a ceramic stone. What would be the differences/trade-offs here of Diamond vs. Ceramic vs. Blue Stone / Coticule? Particularly in the context of finishing the knife sharpening process - I'd like something close to what came from factory

Once you get to a quality stone like Chosera 3k, it's all nuance. As mentioned, you won't be able to tell the difference until you have reached a certain level of sharpening proficiency.

BTW, we are talking about levels of sharpness far in excess of what most mass produced knives like Takamura ship with.

 

[Nemo]

Super informative - thank you everyone.

BTW - are there really any better knives than a Takamura R2 Gyuto? I've been cooking for 15 years and struggle to imagine how it could be improved.

There are many different aspects of a knife that affect its performance. The steel affects sharpening, edge retention, corrosion resistance and brittleness. The grind affects food release, food separation, sharpening, thinning and wedging. The prifile affects which cutting motions are facilitated. The blade finish affects stiction, ergonomics and aesthetics. The handle affects ergonomics and aesthetics....

Many aspects of performance trade off against each other. A thin knife will resist wedging but have poor food release. A thicker knife will wedge but MAY have good food release. A mirror polished honyaki looks fabulous but stiction goes through the roof.

Welcome to a very deep rabbit hole.

 

[Choppin]

like others said - you don’t NEED any other stones, in fact you have an excellent kit already that will do everything in terms of keeping your knives sharp.

if you want to play with other stones, a BBW or Coticule like others said is fun. Or an Aizu, great for edges. A Gesshin 6k is a great fine synth that feels awesome while sharpening.