Possibly end of an era..... Kiyoshi Kato Retired

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Neutri said:
I don't want to claim to be certain what @Jovidah meant but I think you guys have different definition of elitist gatekeeping. He didn't say buying knives was elitist gatekeeping. There are knives for any price you wanna pay. But raising prices to exhorbitant amount makes less and less people able to afford them. If you look at Kato's knives now, only a very few "elites" can now afford them while it wasn't the case a few years ago. It's like gentrification, raise the price on a rent of a neighborhood and soon there will only be rich people living there. That's elitist gatekeeping. I'm not saying it's good or bad or whether the prices are justified or not, just that very high prices make something only affordable to very very few people called "elites" (for some reason).
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Merely responding to "The only thing exorbitant prices are good for is elitist gatekeeping...," apologies if I'd misunderstood the intent.
I don't wanna address the 'gentrification' analogy, since that's for another thread, and there's both good and bad forms of gentrification, a complex issue.
Honestly don’t know why seemingly exorbitant Kato prices are a big deal here. Fact is that there're not enough of them produced for everyone who wants one to go around. Yes, obviously a high price filters out those that can't afford them—but it shouldn't be an issue since there're loads of great performing knives available for a fraction of the cost. Comes down to priorities—if having a Kato is the most important thing in life, then save up, sell the car and camera, just make it a priority and buy one, is my thinking.
Yeah, I'd love to eat the omakase at Masa ($750), or the tasting menu at Per Se ($390), can't afford it, but look longingly into the dining room whenever I walk by. ...maybe someday.
 
enrico l said:
I never claim anyone is a victim and did not want to make it seem that way. But you’d be surprised how heavily people weigh other’s opinions on this site. When I first got here I strongly referred to what long-standing members had discussions about, and I value their knowledge. If you were on the fence about buying one or not, it may tip the scales. There should be reasoning on why you are endorsing it, not just “market value”. When 1 person is pretty much setting that value.

I hope everyone who buys Kato’s now are happy with them. I do not wish to deter anyone as well.

Also, most people put this stuff on their credit cards and deal with it later.
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Just chiming in that as a newer member here (4 months), this is spot on. I regularly make a mental catalogue of more senior members and their opinions to weigh whether I buy, sell or consider different knives and tools.
 
Ok I’m so confused. Another one is available???? So 3 for today?
 
enrico l said:
Ok I’m so confused. Another one is available???? So 3 for today?
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It's available as I type.....for an eye watering $3K+ with taxes. And for an undersized 210WH. I liked them better when they are oversized at 217mm edge length
 
DitmasPork said:
Honestly don’t know why seemingly exorbitant Kato prices are a big deal here. Fact is that there're not enough of them produced for everyone who wants one to go around. Yes, obviously a high price filters out those that can't afford them—but it shouldn't be an issue since there're loads of great performing knives available for a fraction of the cost. Comes down to priorities—if having a Kato is the most important thing in life, then save up, sell the car and camera, just make it a priority and buy one, is my thinking.
Yeah, I'd love to eat the omakase at Masa ($750), or the tasting menu at Per Se ($390), can't afford it, but look longingly into the dining room whenever I walk by. ...maybe someday.
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Oh I totally agree with what you are saying. There are indeed so many different knives for everyone that I don't think it should be an issue. I think I misunderstood your message, apologies. I was just saying that fewer people can afford high priced knives that's all :)
 
Corradobrit1 said:
It's available as I type.....for an eye watering $3K+ with taxes. And for an undersized 210WH. I liked them better when they are oversized at 217mm edge length
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Out of stock....... until the next one gets listed. Or the old one gets relisted.......;)

Don't be a trout
Fly_Casting-1.jpeg
 
So there is a production increase after retireing ?
cool businessmodel this is ;) .

SircutAlot
 
bahamaroot said:
The more rare the item and the more people want them the higher the price. Has always been that way be it cars, watches or PlayStations.
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I dont believe that at all.

Look at vintage Fender guitars. Pre-CBS Strats are going for like 30k (or 45k for custom colors). They were cranking those things out, theyre definitely not that rare compared to some other desirable vintage stuff. The existence of a rare thing does not create its own demand.

More generally several of you all gotta stop believing that economic theory stops at your high school econ course. There is a huge amount of information asymmetry around this. If you all want to buy into it fine w.ever. I will not be because I actually think that's a dumb thing to do. 2.5k is better spent on a really killer natural stone 10 days out of the week anyway, if I am going to insist on overpaying for something.
 
My opinion that no one asked for, I don't like current pricing but if JNS did not sell them for 2500 with the "retirement" happening, someone else would have immediately flipped it for double the price anyway. I don't hate the retailer/maker is getting that money instead of a scalper (even though I know we aren't sure on profit splits).

I think some people are enticed by rarity and scarcity, some aren't and a lot are in the middle like me. It's cool that something is "rarer" (relatively speaking) but it's not enough to make me buy something.

On the watch front I have hunted for a rolex I have wanted for a long time. It's not particularly rare but I just loved the watch for years. Finally was able to get one and they discontinued it a couple years after. I was actually sad because I wanted more people who wanted one to be able to get them haha.
 
I know currently US and German makers charging $3K for a knife. Kato is a steel at 2,400

I got mine at 1,300 or so - so happy. But should have bought when they were going for $500

Not that I can afford a $2,400 knife - I can’t, but supply/demand and comparables tell you the story
 
DitmasPork said:
I believe. However, while $2.461.60 is eye opening and too steep for my humble wallet—if that Kato sells, then it's a fair price supported by the market, a win-win for JNS and buyer.

The lofty price of $2.461.60 for a 210 Kato, w1, is a good thing in the long run. It raises the price ceiling, making it inviting for more makers to elevate prices so they'll have an easier time making a living, in addition to benefiting vendors and private sellers. It also would make the knife making craft more attractive endeavor for people to enter the field of knife making. I quick brows through Eating Tools—there's a 205mm gyuto by a young American maker for $3750.

I really feel that this is the best time to buy chef's knives—the market is incredibly diverse, with heaps of quality knives offered on both the high and low end.

The same arguments about knife prices are the same with restaurants. One can get a superb Canto meal in NYC for $7.00—or spend $700.00 (wine not included) at JÔNT in DC. The high end inspires eaters and employs cooks, develops/feeds connoisseurship, paves the way for more to follow suit.

TBH, I don't know what Kato-san's cut it, but that's none of my business.
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sounds like someone sold their car to buy a horse
 
I find it baffling that the people who are the most vocal defending the price also then say they cant afford the current price.

Also worth noting many then admit they bought one at a lower price. This seems like motivated reasoning to me.

If the folks throwing down their visas on these aren't laughing at themselves I dunno... I personally get how ridiculous I am when I get yet another SVL.
 
tcmx3 said:
I find it baffling that the people who are the most vocal defending the price also then say they cant afford the current price.
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What does one have to do with the other? Just because I can't afford something doesn't mean the price is not fair.

I didn't think Kato was worth $1300 either, I could afford it at that price or the current price, but to me it is not worth it. The price is still fair if it sells. Fair and price shouldn't even be used together in this case.
 
RockyBasel said:
I know currently US and German makers charging $3K for a knife. Kato is a steel at 2,400

I got mine at 1,300 or so - so happy. But should have bought when they were going for $500

Not that I can afford a $2,400 knife - I can’t, but supply/demand and comparables tell you the story
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True—I've also seen some young makers positioning their kitchen knives in the above-$3000 strata. In the grand scheme of things $2400 not an insane price for what some consider a top-notch, quality, kitchen knife handmade by a slow production artisan about to retire. J-knife collecting also relatively cheap compared to other forms of collecting—like art, cameras, watches, etc. $2400 doesn't even get you close to a Leica M6. And, yup, supply and demand.
 
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