Recommend A Killer Gyuto for My Most Intense Professional Job Yet!

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shtoonkeyg

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Hi Folks. I'm looking at making a substantial investment into a Japanese Gyuto that I can use for just about everything at a new job I'm about to start. I currently work at a high volume modern steakhouse, but will be moving to a Michelin & James Beard level kitchen in about a month or so. While there will still be lots of knife work to do (no real prep crew, cooks show up at noon and prep just about everything and then work through dinner service), I'm assuming that there will be a higher emphasis on precision than I'm used to, and also probably a slightly lower emphasis on speed and prepped volume than I'm used to. I'd say I have about average knife skills, but I've only been cooking professionally for about two years so I'd like to think that I'm still in a constant state of improvement. I'd like to invest in a high-end, well regarded gyuto as I start this position, and if I have to grow into it a bit skill-wise, that's ok. I am confident in my ability to grow while using the knife. Any and all help would be appreciated.

Ideally, I would like to be able to purchase this knife sometime in the next month or two. So, if it's not available right now, that's ok, but I can't afford to sit around for more than 5-6 weeks searching for it.

As per the standards, my knife questionnaire is below. DISCLAIMER: I am fairly new to this forum, and I have tried my best to talk about the things that I've learned from reading other's posts. If I am misinformed about a concept, please feel free to correct me. I feel specifically ill-informed in the grind department as I've mentioned in a previous post. I have no idea how to tell how Myojin/Kyuzo/Mazaki/etc are going to feel/perform compared to one another. I am in admiration of everyone here who has internalized so much knowledge specific to how different smiths and sharpeners around the world are producing knives that differ from one another.

With that aside...



LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese handle, though I would use a yo-handle if it was considered to be an essential part of the experience (as some people say for their TF's)

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm (Would also consider 270mm, but leaning 240)

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No, but this knife will be my daily driver during both prep and service, so it would help if it was not the most reactive knife EVER. While my intention is to be vigilant about wiping down and overall care of the knife (as I am with my current knives), things happen during busy services and I cannot guarantee that there will be no moments in which the knife has something acidic on it longer than it otherwise should. All that being said, would like to avoid stainless clad.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$600, but would ideally stay closer to $500


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Professional Environment - morning prep shifts and dinner service, 50 hrs/week.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
All around use from vegetables to herbs to proteins. Chopping and slicing of vegetables, chiffonade herbs, mincing various items, trimming and portioning meat and fish. Will NOT be used for bone, joints, frozen items, hard cheeses, highly abrasive items, etc.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
I currently alternate between using my Yoshihiro AS 240mm Gyuto (Stainless Clad) and a New West Knife Works 9" Chefs Knife.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
I am primarily a rocker with some push cutting and draw cuts mixed in. I am trying, however, to incorporate more of the latter two. I would like the knife I buy to have at least SOME degree of ability to rock, even if it is primarily suited to push cuts. This is what scares me about Yoshikane knives, for example - I've read that the large flat section makes rock chopping pretty difficult. I am open and flexible to ideas/criticism regarding this mindset - would hate to miss out on a great knife just because I couldn't adapt to a different cutting style.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I enjoy both of them in their own way, but both are lacking in many departments. The F&F of the Yoshihiro is decent, but it's too light and not quite tall enough for me. The NWKW 9" has a bit more heft and I like the profile, but working with the S35VN has been meh for me. The grinds on both knives leave a lot to be desired - both are rather thick BTE and yet somehow feel daintier than I'd like.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Honestly my intention is to favor performance over aesthetics in almost all regards. I'd rather a knife have better food release (less stiction?) than have a super cool finish.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
All of my desires regarding F&F aspects, including handle, rounding of the spine, etc. are geared towards comfort during all-day use. I don't really care about the aesthetic, but I would like it to be comfortable to grip and use for long periods of time.

Geometry/Specifications:
Though I've yet to own a knife like this, I think I'm looking for something that is decently thin BTE but has enough heft to it that it is just starting to get that feeling of "falling" through food. Not a true workhorse grind, but one that, despite it's cutting performance, FEELS like it doesn't have to be babied.

Theoretically between 3.5-5mm spine thickness at the heel, and no less than 50mm height at the heel.

I honestly do not know much about types of grinds - from what I've read it seems like a Convex, Wide-Bevel, or even S-Grind could all be desirable for different reasons. I would love to hear opinions on what these different grinds bring to the table and see different recommendations with different grinds, if anyone feels that it's warranted.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I do not currently possess the skills to thin a knife, reprofile, re-finish, round a choil or spine, etc. I DO possess the skills to get the knife sharp on the stones, though. So while I don't need it to be super sharp OOTB, I do not want to have to thin it or reprofile it, I'd rather it come the way that I want it. That's not to say I don't want to learn how to do those things, just don't feel ready to experiment quite yet.

In regards to performance, again, I'd like it to have outstanding cutting performance - ideally a good balance between razor sharpness but also solid food release. I know a lot of that has to do with the grind, thinness behind the edge vs convexity for food release (PLEASE STOP ME IF I'M SPOUTING BS, I'M NEW TO THIS). Ideally I'd like to have a balance between both.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Right now, my routine is to sharpen once per week. I do not need the knife to stay SCREAMING sharp for the entire work week. I would however, like a knife that can stay serviceably (above-average) sharp for the duration of the week, with stropping maintenance as necessary.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood at home, probably synthetic at work.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I am interested in improving regardless, I think I can get a very very sharp edge, but I feel like the durability of my edges are not great. Does not feel like my knives stay screaming sharp for more than a few knife projects.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes. I currently own and use in tandem: SG500, King 1000/6000, Naniwa Chosera 3000, Naniwa Snow White 8000
 
With that budget, there's a lot to chose from. I personally own a 240 Mutsumi Hinoura Ku gyuto in white 2 steel which I highly recommend for the following reasons:
1.wasn't very reactive compared to other white steel offering i have, then again most reactivity are from the cladding anyway which this one has the Kurouchi(black finish ) helps regarding the reactivity.
2.Have yet to find any issues from my rotation.
3. Only need stropping to freshen up the edge. and can get real sharp fast. doesn't really need a proper sharpening much.
4. Edge retention is pretty superior too! better than some of my blue 2.
5. With the current strong dollar. this knife is dirt cheap. Performance V.S Dollar punches wayyyy above its price point
6. this knife ticks most of what you want, the spine thickness(mine was 5mm from the handle) 53mm tall
7. Hinouras are really underrated

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/hinoura_gyuto_240-2363-detail
 
One of my requirements for a pro knife is that it be the only gyuto I need for anything that comes up in a day of prep. Onions, mirepoix, tomatoes, potatoes, citrus, light protein work, etc, etc, etc. At home I can happily use 6 knives for 6 tasks, at work there can be only one. And that one is almost invariable a Yoshikane or Gengetsu with the occasional Marko or Devin thrown in for a treat. Note that I use a sujihiki for fabricating proteins but it can be done with a gyuto.

Both the Gengetsu and Yoshikane are fairly easily available and within your price range. Both are "mid weight", pretty flat (you'll get used to push cuts in short order) have good food release, stainless clad stainless or SKD (semi-stainless).

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...oducts/gengetsu-240mm-semi-stainless-wa-gyuto
Yoshikane SKD Nashiji Stainless Clad Gyuto 210mm/ 240mm/ 270mm (In Stock!)

https://tokushuknife.com/collections/yoshikane/products/yoshikane-skd-nashiji-gyuto240mm
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/yoshikane-knives/products/yoshikane-nashiji-skd-gyuto-240mm
Enjoy the ride!
 
If you only want 1 gyuto for everything and that's the only knife you want to use all day, personally I would always go for a stainless steel (or something as close to it as you can get). So the Yoshikane mentioned is a very good knife although with a large flat spot you need to like. The Myojin mentioned at the start of this thread is also a beautiful blade with a very nice grind. So with those 2 options you can't go wrong.

I'd throw Sukenari (their HAP40 and ZDP-189 steels are fantastic but their blades in SG2 are a little tougher and require less babying) in the mix. In my experience they're perfect for the pro kitchen, well made with a thin grind but still very sturdy.

Good luck with the new job!
 
My son is in a nearly identical place, career-wise, and he's been using a Yoshikane SKD Nashiji for the last several months and he loves it. He opted for a 210, because his line is a bit too tight on space for a 240. The knife isn't terrible for rocking, but really excels at push cuts and chopping. Holds an edge nicely, too.
 
If you’re going into a Michelin Star/James Beard type of kitchen, you might be cutting a lot of citrus/acidic foods which can really dull white and blue steels quickly. I’m not saying don’t pick a knife in one of those steels, they sharpen/touch up so easily that it might not matter, just be aware of the acid factor.

Yoshikane SKD seems to fit the bill as recommended by a couple other people in the thread, it holds up better to acids and is a bit thicker at the spine out of the handle than the Yoshihiro AS so it feels more substantial. The profile is very flat which can be good or bad depending on your preferences.

Sukenari R2 or YXR7 semi stainless are good too, not flashy and very dependable. A Kaeru SLD gyuto from Japanese Natural Stones is also a good option, more of a beater, but cheap so you can thin and modify the knife however you want without feeling guilty about marking it up. But out of all of these, I think the Yoshikane will still be the “best cutter”.

Any of these should still leave you room in the budget for a 180/210 mm long petty or slicer like the ones from Ashi hamono. That size range should be really useful in that kind of kitchen for detail work if you don’t have one already.
 
I'm not a cook, I've never worked as a cook, I barely cook at home. I just like sharp stuff and the dynamics around that a hobby. I would think you'd want a knife that can maintain it's FINE EDGE, meaning say shave hair or slice a hanging paper, through a full shift. I know I wouldn't want to be stopping to touch up or sharpen my tool in the middle of a shift, but maybe that's just me, the guy who has no actual experience.


I'd personally want the knife to have at least R2 steel. That gives you a ton of options. I really like the Takamura R2 gyoto. It's under $200 brand new, not on sale. Nothing flashy. No fancing cladding. It's quite similar to a Tojiro Pro, also made with R2 steel, but this one has a bit of a laser grind on it instead. The Miyabi birch series is a flashy factory R2 gyoto with a real laser grind on it, unusual for a mass produced knife, Yaxell makes a clone of this knife you can often easily find for well below $200 that is even better for a pro use as it has micarta rather than flashy and unfinished wood on the handle.

Personally, I think something like a Sukenari ZDP is the ultimate workhorse knife. Forget keeping the fine edge for a shift. This thing can probably do a week. I don't think you could find a higher performance knife without going custom. If you do rocking you'd want the regular gyoto. The k-tips are a bit flatter and sometimes the tip digs in and wrecks the board. I love ZDP steel. The lack of vanadium altogether means this thing is much easier to sharpen when compared to anything else that gets even close to it's level of edge holding. I think it's a myth that ZDP is hard to sharpen, I think most people just suck at sharpening in general. It's not hard, you don't need diamonds, and it sharpens quite well and easily, it readily wants to take a fine edge. Superb stuff.

I suppose in Japan they use blue steel, but I have to imagine those knives are getting touched up mid shift and fully sharpened at the end of every night. Forget all that mess and noise. Hard pass for me.
 
There are definitely a few professional chefs in here, who have replied to your thread. They've been though very similar situations to what you've written above.

One golden piece of advice I learned (from my earlier experience into finer dining) is to have a cheap-ish stainless knife ready for a hectic service. Leave the high quality carbons for prep time... and once you get familiar to them (if you aren't already), you can begin to introduce them into service.
 
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I think the Yoshikane SKD is an excellent recommendation. Semi stainless so you don't have to worry so much, great performance with some meat in the spine, looks great, very good edge retention, and well within budget.

Chef Knives to Go has one in stock.

K&S has one too
https://knivesandstones.us/collecti...ashiji-finish-teak-handle-with-free-teak-saya
and Tosho
https://www.toshoknifearts.com/en-us/collections/yoshikane/products/bja-cd285-fa240https://www.toshoknifearts.com/en-us/collections/yoshikane/products/bja-cd258-fa240
As does Cooks Edge
https://thecooksedge.com/collections/yoshikane-hamono/products/yoshikane-nashiji-skd-gyuto-240mm
 
Kippington said:
There are definitely a few professional chefs in here, who have replied to your thread. They've been though very similar situations to what you've written above.

One golden piece of advice I learned (from my earlier experience into finer dining) is to have a cheap-ish stainless knife ready for a hectic service. Leave the high quality carbons for prep time... and once you get familiar to them (if you aren't already), you can begin to introduce them into service
Click to expand...
Or getting an AEB-L workpony from you, that would be the ultimate work knife.
 
I am a Shiro lover, but when it comes to service (as head coach of this fantastic team i don`t have cut too much but for my team there is a no carbon for service rule), and even i tend to stick on that rule.

In prep situations i love really big gyuto, and only gyuto most of the time. Service time is sujihiki time (short one, stainless) some call it kenyo.

Btw. i never understood the US kitchens. What is your job when you have to cut all kind of things ? Dishwasher ?
I loved the times when i was thrown into completely new situations, like butchering meat/fish washing vedgetables making the sweet stuff. and in the end the cooking was the most enlightening, but nothing worth without the other experiences.

Classic Love/Hate ;)

SirCutALot
 
I'm still amazed at how someone who claims to be primarily rockchopping and wants a knife that doesn't feel like it has to be babied gets multiple recommendations for a Yoshikane. Are you guys just hoping he 'grows into it'?
 
Jovidah said:
I'm still amazed at how someone who claims to be primarily rockchopping and wants a knife that doesn't feel like it has to be babied gets multiple recommendations for a Yoshikane. Are you guys just hoping he 'grows into it'?
Click to expand...
Was kinda wondering about this as well. The more I look into Yoshikane, the more I feel like I would just be chipping it all the time at work. Not from negligence, but just from not being incredibly careful with every cut I make. Would you say this is a characteristic of all very hard knives that are also decently thin BTE? How do you think a Toyama would compare, for example?
 
I'm not sure wheter a Yoshi actually is delicate or not... but in my personal perception it feels delicate, and as a result I subconsciously use it slower / more cautiously. I've never actually chipped mine, so this could very likely be entirely between my ears. But if you're looking for one of those knives that has a reassuring solid non-delicate 'feel' IMO the Yoshi isn't it.

I think it's mostly a result of the thin hollow grind... which is also why it performs so well on dense root vegetables, but as a result for me it lacks the reassuring 'solid' feel some of my other (monosteel) knives have. So for example my Ginga and Herder knives are also really thin behind the edge but they don't have this problem. The Takamura does. It's possible this is a monosteel vs san-mai thing, but there's more to it since my fatter san-mai blades don't really have this problem either.
And whether it is a 'problem' at all is also up for debate; I think this is pretty deep in 'personal preferences regarding cutting feedback' territory.

I've never used a Toyama so I can't really compare the two, but plenty of other people have so I'll let them do the talking on that one.
 
Jovidah said:
I'm still amazed at how someone who claims to be primarily rockchopping and wants a knife that doesn't feel like it has to be babied gets multiple recommendations for a Yoshikane. Are you guys just hoping he 'grows into it'?
Click to expand...
Yep. For a home owner I would suggest something like a Tanaka - with a bit of belly. A pro might as well jump into the deep end. "Embrace the Flat!!!"
 
I’m not a professional, but I love knives And have several, as most here do. If I had to only keep one, it would be my Harner. does everything well and holds great edge. I know you said Japanese, but couldn’t resist putting in a plug for a top western smith.
 
I surprised the pros would use Yoshikane as the only knife. I love it, but mine is thinner behind the edge than anything else I own. Do you ever encounter nuts, chocolate, squash on the job? I'd be concerned. At a minimum, keep a cheap beater around.

I'd second the Munetoshi 270 or similar for prep and a Takamura or Ashi Ginga for service. The Takamura will have better retention.
 
Sukenari is great! I love them a lot. Grinds are always fairly reliable and their quality control is top notch. The Takamura is great too, but ime can be a little bit chippy compared to some of the other options mentioned. +1 for what @Jovidah said: Yoshikane feels delicate, but I haven't chipped that knife yet (so it also might just be in my head too). I also don't think that Yoshikane is the knife for you given your stated style.

Circling back to the "ask your chef" part - some kitchens also don't allow kurouchi. So keep that in mind as you look through some of the other suggestions.

Toyama knifes are top shelf. 'nuff said.

One that doesn't get thrown out alot, but that I enjoy is JKI's Yoshimi Echizen (formerly Kintaro) white #2. I originally bought it as a beater prep knife, but I really like it every time I use it. Takes a great edge, super fast and easy to sharpen. It's been abused by all my junior chefs and still keeps on trucking. One caveat (and I don't know if it's intentional or not) is that mine had a bunch of overgrinds along the blade face. Not so great for thinning and stone polishing, but it has great food release!

I really do recommend taking a good look at the Ashi Ginga line - both shirogami and Swedish stainless are great options. You might not win the "sexiest knife on the line" award, but they're solid performers that feel like they were designed for the pro chef. JKI also has the Gesshin Ginga line (same maker but slightly different specs).

In case you are looking for visual appeal - Kagekiyo is also great. I have a Gesshin Kagekiyo Ginsan 240mm gyuto for whenever I have to cook in front of customers or clients.
 
Jovidah said:
I'm still amazed at how someone who claims to be primarily rockchopping and wants a knife that doesn't feel like it has to be babied gets multiple recommendations for a Yoshikane. Are you guys just hoping he 'grows into it'?
Click to expand...
Rock chopping a Yoshi is no issue. Sure it's got a bit of hard stop at the end of the motion, but that can be fixed.

I had a Amekiri version which was nail flexing at the edge. That would be my bigger concern. Thicken that up a bit for toughness would be good.
 
esoo said:
Not a pro, but I would figure something like a Shihan in aeb-l would be pretty darn good based on what I've used. Or the stainless clad 52100.
Click to expand...
I was literally about to write this comment. Shihan's knives are tough, good cutters, versatile profile. Honestly the regular 52100 is pretty calm too. I know @Malcolm Johnson used his 210 as a line knife for a while.
 
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