TF White 1 Steel problem

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I’m a Teppanyaki Chef, I use a Teryasua Fujiwara Nashiji White 1 Petty as my shrimp knife (and a Takeda NAS santoku as my main Hibachi Knife) and I’ve had A TON of micro chipping on the edge of it.

I’ve put it thru a full progression twice now- it sharpens up super quick and I don’t sharpen it past 5k (what’s the point on Hibachi knives) and it doesn’t have any visible chips unless you feel the edge or magnify it.

Has anyone else had this problem with TF’s White Steel #1? The Takeda is absolutely fine (thriving even). Maybe I should switch to a blade with some chromium in it?

I don’t expect any hibachi chefs to chime in, but has anyone had any issues like this with a TF or any other knife and figure out how to stop it?
 

ModRQC

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Depends on sharpening angle but you could find such hardened Shiro 1 chippy pretty readily in professional circumstances. One thing being are you sure you're the only one user to this very knife?
 

jedy617

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Chromium would just add more/larger carbides which would mean more brittle, so that shouldn't be your answer...that being said not sure I would use white 1 or AS on a flat top...but the AS is working which is theoretically less tough than white 1. My only guess is just because the Takeda is a good amount softer? I know TF is run quite hard, but don't know much about Takeda
 

Jason183

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I’ve already heard some ppl mentioned before that TF’s White 1 is a bit more brittle compared to his AS, plus you’re cutting on the grill(Don’t think it’s good idea if the steel/cutting edge is very delicate). I don’t think it’s the steel problem tho, maby it’s not the right tool for the right job?

I would recommend something similar to this

I haven’t tried TF’s white1 but I’ve tried both Yoshikazu Tanaka and Murray Carter apprentice’s White 1. Y Tanaka’s white 1 feels more delicate and Carter’s White 1 feels more Tougher IME. Assuming if TF’s white1 was heat treated on more delicate side, then it might be suited better on softer cutting boards.
 
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big D

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Have you ever tried a steeper sharpening angle? .......... just a thought
 
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I’m a Teppanyaki Chef, I use a Teryasua Fujiwara Nashiji White 1 Petty as my shrimp knife (and a Takeda NAS santoku as my main Hibachi Knife) and I’ve had A TON of microchipping on the edge of it.

Has anyone else had this problem with TF’s White Steel #1? The Takeda is absolutely fine (thriving even). Maybe I should switch to a blade with some chromium in it?

White #1 is certainly one of the most brittle steels commonly used especially when taken above 63 or so RC (I don't know how hard your knife is). That being said your instincts about moving to something a bit more alloying are spot on as higher alloyed steels generally have a better balance of toughness and hardness (and always have a better balance of wear resistance and toughness). Basically, as long as you don't switch to a higher hardness White #2 steel or AS the steel should be less brittle than you are working with now. Heck, even Blue #1 and Blue #2 are almost certainly tougher than White #1 because some of the carbon is tied up in carbides.

All that being said others' suggestions about geometry are probably the best place to start as most problems can be sorted out by a change in geometry.
 
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I did teppanyaki for a few years to help pay bills. White #1 is definitely going to chip on a flat top. Most carbon steels are going to chip in those circumstances. I think Takeda is an exception because his grind is so unique and chonky behind the edge, so the geometry can somewhat support it, but any standard ground carbon knife is probably going to get wrecked real fast.

A softer knife is the way to go. If it makes you feel any better, I tried out the TF nashiji last year for a while and also found it to be a chip monster until I microbeveled it (even using it on regular cutting boards). I guess what I'm trying to say is most high carbon knives are going to struggle in a teppanyaki environment and TF nashiji even more so.

An option to try out if you really don't want to go for a softer stainless is any sort of nihonkou knife? Back when I was growing up, every other teppanyaki chef I saw was using a pretty inexpensive nihonkou knife (SK I think?). This was back in the 90's though, so I don't really know what people are using these days.
 

blokey

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I did teppanyaki for a few years to help pay bills. White #1 is definitely going to chip on a flat top. Most carbon steels are going to chip in those circumstances. I think Takeda is an exception because his grind is so unique and chonky behind the edge, so the geometry can somewhat support it, but any standard ground carbon knife is probably going to get wrecked real fast.

A softer knife is the way to go. If it makes you feel any better, I tried out the TF nashiji last year for a while and also found it to be a chip monster until I microbeveled it (even using it on regular cutting boards). I guess what I'm trying to say is most high carbon knives are going to struggle in a teppanyaki environment and TF nashiji even more so.

An option to try out if you really don't want to go for a softer stainless is any sort of nihonkou knife? Back when I was growing up, every other teppanyaki chef I saw was using a pretty inexpensive nihonkou knife (SK I think?). This was back in the 90's though, so I don't really know what people are using these days.
Sakai Kikumori and Fujiwara Kanefusa still sells SK steel knives, not sure which exact steel Misono use in their Swedish carbon, but it is pretty good too.
 
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Thanks guys.

One main thing is the carbon steels take a better edge, and I need a wa handle… I’m done with western.

I’m going to start by microbeveling… if the problem persists I’ll try another Petty knife
 

RDalman

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Yup! I think his White 1 may be too brittle for this task…

Like I said, the Takeda NAS is my main knife, I just use the TF petty for 31/35 shrimp. The Takada probably cuts 4 or 5 times more than the TF and is fine.
I don’t know how hot the grill is, but if there's any chance of you making the edge over say 150-200c you might be (permanently) altering the heat treatment, maybe getting into temper embrittlement. That is apart from the edge geometry hitting a metal "board" I assume. So yea I would probably look to a beater knife. For a knife that can handle heat you would want one made in hss (high speed steel) tempered for this use in mind, temper range in the ~500-570c range depending...
 
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I don’t know how hot the grill is, but if there's any chance of you making the edge over say 150-200c you might be (permanently) altering the heat treatment, maybe getting into temper embrittlement. That is apart from the edge geometry hitting a metal "board" I assume. So yea I would probably look to a beater knife. For a knife that can handle heat you would want one made in hss (high speed steel) tempered for this use in mind, temper range in the ~500-570c range depending...
It’s no different than sharpening, I wipe it off with a wet towe after every cut.

With proper cutting technique it doesn’t really damage the knife. The amount of chipping I’m talking about is only really there when u feel the edge or look at it very closely.

The Takada’s performance alone assured me that I can use a nice knife for this task, and I’m really happy I went with it over the Tojiro that was issued to me
 

Garm

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I don't know if or how this fits into this discussion, but I remembered seeing this video a while back of Yu Kurosaki and his brother making a knife for a steakhouse/grill chef for using on the hot plate(I couldn't find the one I saw with English subtitles atm).
Someone more knowledgeable on the subject might explain it, but it looked like the knife was made without any heat being applied to the steel.
 

MowgFace

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I don't know if or how this fits into this discussion, but I remembered seeing this video a while back of Yu Kurosaki and his brother making a knife for a steakhouse/grill chef for using on the hot plate(I couldn't find the one I saw with English subtitles atm).
Someone more knowledgeable on the subject might explain it, but it looked like the knife was made without any heat being applied to the steel.


Looks like he is cold forging at that point. Since the billet is pre-lam, it has already had heat applied to the steel. Search Youtube for Murray Carter - Forging a Kuro-uchi Nakiri-Bocho. @11:49 he talks about cold forging.
 
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I don't know if or how this fits into this discussion, but I remembered seeing this video a while back of Yu Kurosaki and his brother making a knife for a steakhouse/grill chef for using on the hot plate(I couldn't find the one I saw with English subtitles atm).
Someone more knowledgeable on the subject might explain it, but it looked like the knife was made without any heat being applied to the steel.


This is very interesting…

Also if you want to see the amount of chipping I’m talking about here’s a picture of the edge.
071F170F-A877-4764-A50E-A4CC921CF893.jpeg
 

Garm

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Looks like he is cold forging at that point. Since the billet is pre-lam, it has already had heat applied to the steel. Search Youtube for Murray Carter - Forging a Kuro-uchi Nakiri-Bocho. @11:49 he talks about cold forging.
Normally I would tend to agree with you, but every instance I've seen of cold forging has been done after the knife was hot forged to shape, to introduce the dislocations in the steel or whatever it is they do. Here he seems to start cold forging the taper from spine to heel from a thin sheet of steel. The knife is then cut to shape from that same thin sheet, before it even resembles the shape of a knife. I could be completely wrong, but to me it looks like this knife is made in a different way than usual, perhaps reflecting the intended use of the knife, which is very specialized and different from normal kitchen knife usage.
 

Bigbbaillie

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This is very interesting…

Also if you want to see the amount of chipping I’m talking about here’s a picture of the edge.
View attachment 166009
That looks like pretty normal microchipping to me. If you are using it on a metal surface, then I would say this TF is holding up exceptionally (considering the thin grind and brittle steel).

I know plenty of chefs who are happy with soft stainless like misono 440 or macs.
 

sansho

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yeah maybe i'm imagining something different from what you're actually doing to the knife, but cutting on a steel surface sounds like significant abuse. i'm amazed that a bit of microchipping that i can barely see in the pic is all that's happening to it.
 
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yeah maybe i'm imagining something different from what you're actually doing to the knife, but cutting on a steel surface sounds like significant abuse. i'm amazed that a bit of microchipping that i can barely see in the pic is all that's happening to it.
Proper cutting technique just dulls the knife somewhat quickly. I put it through a 2K around once a week, then a 1K-2k every month.

I think you guys are imagining me doing push cuts on a metal surface but that’s not the case.

Anyways I did another 1K-2K rotation on it and it’s working fine… I think it just needed the micro bevel to give the edge a little more support. The white 1’s factory edge was too fragile, and it sharpens up so quickly I didn’t need to do that much on its first couple runs on the stones
 
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