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ian said:
Sounds like you’re talking about people choosing their own pronouns, no?

Here’s how I look at it. For some (not huge, but present) number of people, being allowed to choose their pronouns and have people respect their choice is incredibly life affirming and life changing. They feel seen and accepted. For many of us, it’s legitimately difficult to incorporate these changes into how we operate. It takes a lot of effort to suppress a lifetime’s understanding of gender; I know a bunch of people who use nontraditional pronouns and I frequently screw them up in my head, and (less frequently) out loud. But it’s so worth it to try since it makes such a huge difference to those involved, and it’s really not that big a deal to the rest of us.

Edit: regarding the phrasing above, most people who’ve changed genders would say that it’s not even a “choice”. A colleague of mine spent most of her life as a super depressed, somewhat odd man, but now she’s living life as an amazing, happy, outgoing woman that’s a force for good in the community. For her, it was undoubtably traumatic to make that transition, e.g. her marriage didn’t survive, but she had to do it, and the result was completely transformative. TLDR: Questions of biology just seem less relevant to me in the face of someone’s transformational joy.
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Social transition is difficult to wrap your head around, even for trans people. Medical transition on the other hand is virtually inevitable. After five years on hormones most trans people are effortlessly perceived as their gender. The question is what to do in the meantime.

In the past most trans people would opt to stay 'stealth', presenting as their old gender until it becomes impossible to do so. At that point they would often move to another city and cut ties with everyone from their former life. Thankfully the world is becoming more accepting, and more people feel comfortable socially transitioning during, before, or even without medically transitioning. It's awkward, but it beats the alternative.

It's not easy to endure this potential humiliation on a daily basis. The trans people who do so are trying to keep their friends and loved ones in their lives. Using someone's preferred pronouns is a sign that you want them to continue being part of your life as well. If you don't want to use someone's pronouns then don't. It makes it easier to know who's worth your time and energy.
 
Hey then I’m happy to have derailed the YouTube feed this way. For those who felt wronged by my joke the other night, I was not minimizing the feed itself. Just a correlation I thought about after a night of YouTube with a friend. But it’s not the same thing. Images are hypnotic and YouTube has a way of hanging on a limb to keep about center that’s sort of suprising and soporiphic.

Unpopular Opinions is more like late night friends or family party when you’re in that temporary bubble where you seem to overhear all discussions but are into none and it’s just warming and peaceful yet its erratic, both familiar and new and mixes and something else all together. The YouTube image was just more funny and to the point.

As for the other thing, it’s nice to see us talk about it. I mostly respect everything that has been said and agree to it. Yet to me there is a very dangerous zone here that we’re trying to cross the wrong way. It does not good to deny what is evidence. Especially when it’s thrown about trying to hide what’s more obvious. I’m talking about a mental construct.

That’s where the language failed. It did not suffice. It tried to roughly cut people in two where people are a million things each of them. That’s where society failed as well: to peg this as mental deficiencies instead of constructs. A mental construct is what each stands on as he confronts the world. And you cannot categorize that.

And it has nothing to do with categorizing them as mentals and the rest of the world is sane. In fact, the danger is that once you start seeing it as a mental construct, you do open a totally different can of worms. If there is enough people feeling that language distorts the perception they and others have of themselves, and if they gather around and gain momentum, then their mental construct is normalized. If it is, well we need to understand why this has normalized. It is just as important as to understand what sets of cirmustances brought us to Enlighment, why we chased witches, how Hitler came about, how we woke up to the urgency of a decaying planet and started really working to control and even revert it. We’re looking deep into the reasons why we all tend to refuse and destroy. It is looking deep into civilization’s mirror, because it encompasses everything: how humanity evolved, persecuted, and compartmentalized everything - their own way.

It’s not just their mental construct: it is all of ours. Being « binary » does not mean your mental construct is anything more obvious than theirs. It comes from somewhere, and you are thinking as someone that cannot be interchanged with someone else. I never felt any diffirent about anybody whatsoever.

It’s compartmentalization again, on another level and it won’t end nicely, especially not if we push denial of what is really happening by blaming language itself. Language followed us and adapted to us, both encompassing the human experience and the scientific progress. It was never meant to be right: it is meant to have a way to shape ideas into concrete demeanors. Of course it has to adapt right now, but it is not the problem: we are.

And then going the length of subverting this dilemma from language to biology, and claim something aberrant like it’s weird and wrong to call your baby boy a boy just because of biology, since he as an individual is not yet ready to think for himself and make the decision. So now all binary parents should feel like they did something wrong?

Well no because you can’t argue against biology. I don’t care how you think, and how your baby boy will think: you still need to teach him the particularity of keeping a dick clean around 2 and explain to him why he has it/how it is different from the girls.

And we all know why boys are made that way and girls made another one: so that the specie can reproduce and survive. And that’s not really something you should just throw aside as a casualty of language.

To really understand you need to ask yourself: what then? I mean, maybe because I called my two girls « girls » and « princesses » and never told them they could also be a boy, I’m an *******. And maybe I’ll have bullshited them and ruined their lives. But if we start the other way around - make do like it has no importance well first it won’t work because it is an important distinction and children are no morrons.

That they come to grow up and don’t feel that way, that’s alright. But here is something that language is not wrong about: differentiation is the basis of survival and intelligence. That’s why language is based on differentiation. That differentiation has come from a fundamental one - we are different from the rock, the trees, the other animals, and among ourselves even.

So there is nothing wrong with giving children the basic scope of differentiation that at once explains how life thrives and how we intelligent creatures will still come to war, blood, rape, ostracism, in the name of refusing difference.
 
Really not a swamp I want to wade into but I can't resist dipping my toes...

It wasn't too long ago that homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder so I'm not sure talking about mental deficiency is really helpful; many would consider it part of the problem...

What mostly boggles my mind is that the whole gender discussion has become such a politically charged firestorm when really we're talking about trivial portions of the population. Gay, lesbian and bisexual is maybe 5% of the population, and anything after that in the LGBTBBQ+-whatever we're really talking very low numbers. It's really feels like it has become a giant straw man topic.

As a Dutch person growing up in an environment where homosexuality was already an unexciting accepted normality I always found it remarkable how it's still such a contentious topic in the richest most developed country in the world. The same country that harnessed the power of the atom almost 80 years ago, went to the moon over 50 years ago, and stood at the cradle of the digital revolution... still has a sizable population that's basically roleplaying the Christian Taliban. :rolleyes:
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
There is no failure in my logic. It becomes my business when people make it my business.

But this is probably a discussion I best let be.
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Hey, I’m always sort of curious about this. Do you know anyone personally who uses different pronouns than you expect? I feel like our society is really segregated in that sense, so that living in a big city and working in a very liberal field, I know a ton of such people, but I don’t think that’s the norm across the US. It’s always really interesting to me to talk to good people with different backgrounds about their life experiences. But we can also let it be.
 
ian said:
Hey, I’m always sort of curious about this. Do you know anyone personally who uses different pronouns than you expect? I feel like our society is really segregated in that sense, so that living in a big city and working in a very liberal field, I know a ton of such people, but I don’t think that’s the norm across the US. It’s always really interesting to me to talk to good people with different backgrounds about their life experiences. But we can also let it be.
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Yes and very close to me.
 
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stringer said:
I've had some pretty good fried tofu, jackfruit, oyster mushrooms, cauliflower, etc. I generally hate trying to make direct substitutions/imitations. Never quite the same. But there is plenty of different fried stuff out there that's equally good in it's own way.
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Agree here on the direct substitutions with a few exceptions:

The pickle brined tofu sandwich, done in the style of a southern chicken one, is so effing good. Has made many folks change their tune on tofu

https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes...ed-tofu-sandwich?smid=ck-recipe-android-share

Also a local vegetarian place does a tofu Bahn mi and a fried oyster mushroom poboy that are both smacking. Had some really good Buffalo seitan too

But I'm still resentful of my mom constantly trying to make tofu versions of our normal meals when she was trying to go vegetarian for a bit. Like don't set it up to fail, just make something where it shines naturally rather than throwing BBQ sauce or whatever on it.
 
SwampDonkey said:
Also a local vegetarian place does a tofu Bahn mi and a fried oyster mushroom poboy that are both smacking. Had some really good Buffalo seitan too

But I'm still resentful of my mom constantly trying to make tofu versions of our normal meals when she was trying to go vegetarian for a bit. Like don't set it up to fail, just make something where it shines naturally rather than throwing BBQ sauce or whatever on it.
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You and Stringer are totally right - substitution dishes are almost instant fails.

Right now I’m digging the Lebanese train - it’s stuff so good it ‘happens to be vegetarian when you look at it a bit closer’
 
I don't care too much about the pronouns people want to give themselves, what I however strongly dislike is the choice 'they' and 'them' when it's clearly about one person.

I guess you can change into some other gender, maybe multiple genders, dunno, but last time I checked it still wasn't possible to change into multiple persons.
In some other languages than English this completely breaks grammar and entire sentences. This style of writing is truly annoying to read as my brain constantly says 'hey that's wrong!'.
 
Chopper88 said:
I don't care too much about the pronouns people want to give themselves, what I however strongly dislike is the choice 'they' and 'them' when it's clearly about one person.

I guess you can change into some other gender, maybe multiple genders, dunno, but last time I checked it still wasn't possible to change into multiple persons.
In some other languages than English this completely breaks grammar and entire sentences. This style of writing is truly annoying to read as my brain constantly says 'hey that's wrong!'.
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It’s a hard adjustment, for sure, but there’s nothing sacred about language that prevents it. People have been using “they” for decades (edit: centuries!) to refer to someone whose gender they don’t know. Wasn’t ever an issue until recently when we were asked to use they by people whose gender we think we know. It’s def the pronoun I have the hardest time remembering to use though, especially when the person presents either masculine or feminine.

Edit: the history of the singular they is pretty interesting. I saw a citation that it’s been around since the 1300s, if not longer. Also, note that “you” is used as a singular and a plural too.
 
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I get what you're saying but I was reading an article about some celebrity a while ago, don't remember 100%, think it was Demi Lovato, which was written like 'Demi were going to... ' and 'Demi have always been... '. I have actually never read anything like this before to be honest.
 
Chopper88 said:
I get what you're saying but I was reading an article about some celebrity a while ago, don't remember 100%, think it was Demi Lovato, which was written like 'Demi were going to... ' and 'Demi have always been... '. I have actually never read anything like this before to be honest.
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That looks grammatically incorrect, honestly. There’s no need to use plural adverbs (?) there when using someone’s name, which is singular.
 
Chopper88 said:
I don't care too much about the pronouns people want to give themselves, what I however strongly dislike is the choice 'they' and 'them' when it's clearly about one person.

I guess you can change into some other gender, maybe multiple genders, dunno, but last time I checked it still wasn't possible to change into multiple persons.
In some other languages than English this completely breaks grammar and entire sentences. This style of writing is truly annoying to read as my brain constantly says 'hey that's wrong!'.
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Singular they has been around for a bazillion years see some discussion here

This is like going ham on people for saying "axe" in lieu of "ask", it's a weird thing to get up in arms about and feels like it ignores the history of the language. They is fine as gender free singular. "He or she" on the other hand is awkward and deserves your ire instead, IMO.
 
See my second post with some examples please, what you're referring to is not what I am talking about.

Also, I don't understand the desire to pick a fight here, as I clearly state I do not have a problem with the cause... You come across like someone who just wants to kick stuff just because.
 
Chopper88 said:
I get what you're saying but I was reading an article about some celebrity a while ago, don't remember 100%, think it was Demi Lovato, which was written like 'Demi were going to... ' and 'Demi have always been... '. I have actually never read anything like this before to be honest.
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Ok that’s odd, and not consistent with current usage afaik. I guess maybe I’ve heard of people with multiple personalities wanting to be considered plural, but that’s a different (and more marginal) thing, and not the case with Demi Lovato I think.
 
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Delat said:
If he became a she (sorry, channeling some Lou Reed there), I’m going to be polite and use their preferred pronouns while minding my own business
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I get my moral philosophy from ST:TNG, so

1696182877924.jpeg
 
Chopper88 said:
See my second post with some examples please, what you're referring to is not what I am talking about.

Also, I don't understand the desire to pick a fight here, as I clearly state I do not have a problem with the cause... You come across like someone who just wants to kick stuff just because.
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your second post seemed non sequitur to the first so I thought it was a different point. plus none of those examples were singular they/them which you explicitly lead off in your first post with.

Im just responding to your post as written. In no world does that constitute "kicking stuff just because"
 
tcmx3 said:
Singular they has been around for a bazillion years see some discussion here

This is like going ham on people for saying "axe" in lieu of "ask", it's a weird thing to get up in arms about and feels like it ignores the history of the language. They is fine as gender free singular. "He or she" on the other hand is awkward and deserves your ire instead, IMO.
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Singular they has been around but in a slightly different context it sounds very strange to me. Language is weird like that.

That being said, I have no problem with it. But it’s rare enough that I’m not really used to it.
 
ian said:
Sounds like you’re talking about people choosing their own pronouns, no?

Here’s how I look at it. For some (not huge, but present) number of people, being allowed to choose their pronouns and have people respect their choice is incredibly life affirming and life changing. They feel seen and accepted. For many of us, it’s legitimately difficult to incorporate these changes into how we operate. It takes a lot of effort to suppress a lifetime’s understanding of gender; I know a bunch of people who use nontraditional pronouns and I frequently screw them up in my head, and (less frequently) out loud. But it’s so worth it to try since it makes such a huge difference to those involved, and it’s really not that big a deal to the rest of us.

Edit: regarding the phrasing above, most people who’ve changed genders would say that it’s not even a “choice”. A colleague of mine spent most of her life as a super depressed, somewhat odd man, but now she’s living life as an amazing, happy, outgoing woman that’s a force for good in the community. For her, it was undoubtably traumatic to make that transition, e.g. her marriage didn’t survive, but she had to do it, and the result was completely transformative. TLDR: Questions of biology just seem less relevant to me in the face of someone’s transformational joy.
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Really well stated! It's just not that hard to use pronouns that make others comfortable. I've started trying to use they/them as much as possible and it takes some getting used to... but it's not difficult.
 
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