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No criticism, but why is NY the most vaxxed/boosted sample in the world?
Covid: the shape of things to come
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parbaked
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I'd argue that the vaccine is doing ok.
The vaccine is supposed to prevent serious illness and death.
How many of your staff and residents have gotten seriously ill, hospitalized or died?
Do you think it would be better or worse if no one in your facilities were vaccinated?
People who get flu shots still get the flu, but they get less sick.
Why is this any different?
The most important thing is to keep our hospitals functioning.
One can argue that if everyone was vaccinated, we'd be in a better place.
My parents are in assisted living. They have also had an outbreak. I am grateful that all staff and residents are vaccinated and, because of the outbreak, they now require testing for staff.
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I assume that was a rhetorical question but I'll treat it as serious.
Actually it isn't. State wide NY 84% have received at least one dose and 72% have received two doses. In the City Manhattan and Queens are doing slightly better than the state but the other boroughs are worse than the state as a whole. Depending on how you count the third dose I think Chile and Malta can claim the two highest spots for most vaccinated right now but the UAE, Iceland, and Portugal are near the top as well, as is Denmark which is concerning.
Edit: FWIW all the New England states have higher vaccination rates than NY. NY is in seventh place edging out Maryland and New Jersey
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Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Australia has >90% of the population over 12 years old vaccinated.
Omicron is ripping through regardless. But hospitalisations are way down from Delta; about ⅓ the number of hospitalisations or possibly less. It's a bit too early to tell whether the same applies to fatalities, but the early signs are encouraging.
Omicron is ripping through regardless. But hospitalisations are way down from Delta; about ⅓ the number of hospitalisations or possibly less. It's a bit too early to tell whether the same applies to fatalities, but the early signs are encouraging.
Check the uk data and you will see a decoupling between cases and hospital admissions, icu admissions and deaths. Because we have a high vaccine uptake and booster uptake.
WiriWiri
Senior Member
Yup, Omicron is rife over here, or at least In London I‘ve never been aware of so many close to home cases. My wife tested positive on the 23rd Dec, which was a bit of a bummer for the Xmas plans. All a bit unexpected really - the test was just a precaution before travelling out that surprised us all. Effects did seem minor for her and the two kids (who also tested positive), although I know people who have been worse affected, particularly one unvaccinated type.,
Somewhat mystifyingly I managed to avoid consistently test negative throughout, despite living with plague-woman and our two space-disrespecting kids in a pokey, little house. Maybe that booster did something after all
Somewhat mystifyingly I managed to avoid consistently test negative throughout, despite living with plague-woman and our two space-disrespecting kids in a pokey, little house. Maybe that booster did something after all
Give my best to plague-woman.
user 16756
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I feel like with all 3 variants we've gone through the same song and dance of people gloating about how NYC has it so bad and how much better it's going where they live, supposedly as evidence that some policy they dont like doesnt work, ony for them to immediately get exploded when it hits them even worse.
especially Florida.
Cases in LA county are through the roof. My kids' school had 38 cases today. My family already had omicron, all except me, at least I never tested positive and didn't have symptoms. We all had covid in February and are all vaccinated with 2 doses of Pfizer. My hope is that omicron will provide meaningful protection against other variants. Boosting every 2-3 month is not a viable solution in my opinion. It looks to be pretty impossible to avoid omicron for most people, it is just too contagious.
Luftmensch
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I think you and I share a lot in common! On this point, perhaps you are an optimist and I am a pessimist... or I am just plain sceptical.
I actually agree with you 100%. It is the Government's role, no matter the color of their ties, to think long term and provide a strategy for society. But this is where my scepticism kicks in.... They are poor at doing it.
I think part of the problem is embedded in the increasing obsession with the individual (at least in the anglosphere). Modern politicians appear to arrogantly float above the fact that they are civil servants. They are there to make society function for us. Sure they might throw out glib lines that acknowledge their civic duty as part of their marketing material - but they do not embody it. A significant number of politicians appear to be there for the perks: high incomes, decent pensions, insider knowledge and the opportunity to get lucrative sinecures at some consultancy when they leave politics.
That attitude translates into priorities. These politicians appear to be fighting to win the next argument... or at furthest... the next election. This only benefits them or their party. God forbid they look any further... particularly if it puts their short term ambitions at risk. It has become so bad that shame has died. So great is the entitlement of some people in office, no amount of $hit can stick... no matter how thick. Just step backwards, stop answering questions and continue.
I think this is why there is so much voter disaffection. For the past 2-3 decades, for the majority, it probably hasn't mattered which party has been at the wheel. Governments have not done bold projects that greatly increased the quality of life for its citizens. If you started off poor... your circumstance likely hasnt changed. Yet you watch these suits bicker about small detail and get paid 8 times your salary. No doubt they then retire and get paid 12 times your salary to go on speaking circuits and consult for big business (on top of their parliamentary pension).
Several pages ago it was a mildly funny joke that some American commentators were mourning the loss of Australia to 'fascism'. Apparently we are some hellish nightmare where we have no 'freedoms'.
After a few hollow laughs, it just becomes sad. These so called commentators clearly have little understanding of what fascism actually looks like (sardonic ha ha). But the real naivety of these commentators is that they dont recognise they wear the same stripes as our current Government. That there is any difference in policy is merely a matter of culture; not politics. Yes America; we speak the same language and swap entertainment. But we dont think the same as you or expect the same things. Our current political pathway is as laz a faire as the politicians can get away with (limited by cultural expectations).
And that my friends is why....
Or RATS test... or preparing for a surge in PCR demand... They absolutely did have the foresight. I guarantee you there is some 100 page document sitting on a minister's desk somewhere.... Some advisory panel made repeated calls to act in advance.... Some civil servant recommended a policy to the relevant department. All this foresight ignored.
A political commentator here said of our government, they have:
This is hallmark laz a faire philosophy to me.... Get government 'out of people's lives' until the polls turn bad. Then do the absolute minimum to change the course of the discussion.
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I’m going to say this yet again, vaccines are virtually useless when it comes to readily mutating viruses. Why? Because your vaccine is ALWAYS behind the new variant and is immediately losing effectiveness
What should we be using instead? Antiviral medications IMMEDIATELY upon suspicion of symptoms and/or infection
Remember at the very beginning of all of this they were telling all of those sick people to go right back home and to not come back until they were incredibly sick and as a result it was far too late for them when they finally came to the hospital
Finally, YOU are responsible for the state of your own health. Why does that matter? Around 95% of all the deaths came from people with MULTIPLE comorbidities, not one but MULTIPLE!
Such as obesity / morbid obesity, heart disease, type II diabetes, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, SMOKERS, lack of nutrients necessary for a strong immune system from REAL food and natural supplements, etc etc etc
Every single last one of these “diseases” can be avoided / corrected by simply working hard to live a healthy lifestyle
Realistically the only people we should’ve lost were people with rare genetic diseases, the incredibly super senior, and people with rare viruses which would compromise their immune systems to a point that would leave them far too vulnerable. Those specific people, and ONLY those specific people could have isolated and would have been just fine once a lesser strain evolved as is now happening
We 100% failed by choosing to shoot down the use of immediate treatment with antiviral medications and choosing to live some of the most unhealthy life styles in the world with over half the USA population being obese
We have some people on here saying that we could’ve avoided the majority of these deaths and they are absolutely correct, however their actions and thoughts took us in the completely opposite direction that would’ve easily accomplished that
What should we be using instead? Antiviral medications IMMEDIATELY upon suspicion of symptoms and/or infection
Remember at the very beginning of all of this they were telling all of those sick people to go right back home and to not come back until they were incredibly sick and as a result it was far too late for them when they finally came to the hospital
Finally, YOU are responsible for the state of your own health. Why does that matter? Around 95% of all the deaths came from people with MULTIPLE comorbidities, not one but MULTIPLE!
Such as obesity / morbid obesity, heart disease, type II diabetes, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, SMOKERS, lack of nutrients necessary for a strong immune system from REAL food and natural supplements, etc etc etc
Every single last one of these “diseases” can be avoided / corrected by simply working hard to live a healthy lifestyle
Realistically the only people we should’ve lost were people with rare genetic diseases, the incredibly super senior, and people with rare viruses which would compromise their immune systems to a point that would leave them far too vulnerable. Those specific people, and ONLY those specific people could have isolated and would have been just fine once a lesser strain evolved as is now happening
We 100% failed by choosing to shoot down the use of immediate treatment with antiviral medications and choosing to live some of the most unhealthy life styles in the world with over half the USA population being obese
We have some people on here saying that we could’ve avoided the majority of these deaths and they are absolutely correct, however their actions and thoughts took us in the completely opposite direction that would’ve easily accomplished that
what? at least here, they're all multi-dose vials. are they really single-dose vials where you are?
or do you mean that they should've prescribed smaller doses?
Keith Sinclair
Senior Member
In a perfect world people would eat healthy food. Thing is thought was eating somewhat healthy found it just wasn't the case.
With so many catching Omicron and if it really is as mild as some report seems like it could build up a heard immunity. As long as reasonably healthy had your shots, willing to lie around in bed for a few days.
With so many catching Omicron and if it really is as mild as some report seems like it could build up a heard immunity. As long as reasonably healthy had your shots, willing to lie around in bed for a few days.
My offerings here are observations from my little slice of the world and I've not suggested otherwise. They are not scientific, they are anecdotal. I don't read studies - they make my brain hurt. Any conclusions are subjective and they are not immutable.
I recognize that though these observations are based on first hand familiarity with ALF and Skilled Nursing Facilities, a few of which I'm in daily contact with, they do not constitute "research" by any stretch.
QUOTE="parbaked, post: 874956, member: 34477"]
I'd argue that the vaccine is doing ok.
The vaccine is supposed to prevent serious illness and death.
How many of your staff and residents have gotten seriously ill, hospitalized or died?
Do you think it would be better or worse if no one in your facilities were vaccinated?
[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that a vaccine is to prevent the vaxee from contracting what he is being vaccinated for. The notion that it is to lessen the effects has been introduced (in my opinion) to justify continued vaccinations that don't work as a preventive. And while it may have been true with early iterations of Covid, I can see nothing to suggest that it is true with Omnicron.
We have had staff and residents seriously ill, and hospitalized but to my knowledge have not lost any to Covid. This was true through 2020 - before vaccines, since early 2021 with vaccines and currently with vaccines and boosters. In my observations the vaccines / boosters have made little if any difference from Delta on.
My fully masked since the start, vaccinated since early 2021, staff and resident populations have pretty much mirrored the positive rates of the largely unvaxed, unmasked, local population.
QUOTE="parbaked, post: 874956, member: 34477"]
One can argue that if everyone was vaccinated, we'd be in a better place.
[/QUOTE]
I'll accept that the vaccines probably do no harm and that they may have a positive effect. The notion that they are the end all solution for either prevention or reducing end effects falls apart with the Omnicron variant. The vaccines were designed for version 1.0 and we're at version 4.3 now.
QUOTE="parbaked, post: 874956, member: 34477"]
My parents are in assisted living. They have also had an outbreak. I am grateful that all staff and residents are vaccinated and, because of the outbreak, they now require testing for staff.
[/QUOTE]
Best to your parents through this. I think those of us in the senior industry do everything we can for our residents and I'm sure their ALF is no different. The period when the "scientists" prevented any personal family interaction was heart wrenching for everyone involved and probably accomplished nothing.
Per CDC an "outbreak" is one or more positive cases and most if not all facilities have had at least one outbreak over the last couple years. Again per CDC we started testing staff and residents in about April / May of 2020 and the frequency of testing is based on the number of positives in the local county population. At 10% or more, we're testing 2X / week currently.
PS I used NY and NYC because they are the most discussed populations in my world. If I'm wrong, and it seems I was, then with apologies I'll assert that it makes no difference to the discussion.
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Luftmensch
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What "YOU"??? Define "YOU"??? Where do you want to draw the line? I suppose in this individual responsibility utopia, when my lungs start leaking fluid and I develop respiratory distress; that is when I should start a medical degree and invest in my own ICU?? I know this is absurd... but clearly health is a complex topic that absolutely does make you reliant on others. Modern society have embedded various degrees of that responsibility in the services of the state - for moral/ethical and economic reasons.
Comorbidities are a separate discussion for a separate day. The population is what it is. The disease is what it is. We have to make decisions given the situation we are in. Not some alternate reality.
You aren't understanding the risks. Multiply rare events by a very large number of trials and they can become frequent enough. There have been enough examples of young people dying or becoming severely ill that this clearly isn't "a disease of the frail".
Adopting your approach of just treating people with antivirals when they turn up to hospital is profoundly dangerous:
- Because you are choosing to treat the disease rather than protect the population and stymie the spread... you will have an intense surge in spread
- Because there is an intense surge in spread, hospitals will become overwhelmed
- Because there is an intense surge in spread, 'rare' events will happen in common enough numbers
- Because the hospitals are overwhelmed, there will be less capacity to treat new admissions. Including people who, by your measures, worked "hard to live a healthy lifestyle".... and presumably who you might consider to be more deserving of care??
But I am not really too interested in convincing you one way or the other. I dont think I will. Nor will you convince me.
At this point I am far more fascinated about how the ecosystem of information you live in has contributed to the conclusions you have drawn. But I am not so sure you are willing to review your information ecosystem? Are you getting most of your information from social media? Are you doing your own Google searches? Are you just observing others? Is it colleagues?
Yes, they are still multi-dose but apparently a different vial and a different dose to the ones used for adults. IIRC the dose used for 5-11 is a third of the adult dose (which I think was 30mcg for Pfizer?). Apparently they are not allowed to use the vials intended for adults.
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Greasylake
Thick knives save lives
user 16756
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I mean it's fine. Im not really looking for scientific rigor here Im just asking more along the lines of what are we comparing New York to to decide whether they're doing better or worse than other places.
It has been the case in the US that New York is a leading indicator, at least for both of the first two strains. in a month we can look at other places and see how they did and maybe compare then, but right now at least in the US there's not another city we can compare wrt omicron.
if you go far enough back, Im from Florida myself. I recall distinctly the smugness of Floridian politicos who seem to view anything bad happening to New York not just with glee but as some sort of evidence for how great Florida is. strangely, we didnt hear much from them after COVID absolutely blasted their state. In fact, Florida has ended up with more deaths, enough that it at best washes out when you consider Florida is slightly more populous.
it wont be possible to say how well or poorly NY has handled Omicron until we see how other places shake out.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
As usual, no source. No source, no point.
Sure, there are people with diabetes, immune deficiencies, high blood pressure, old age, and a host of other conditions. Granted, a healthier life style would reduce the number of people who are affected by these conditions. But it would not come even close to eliminating them because quite a lot of co-morbidities have causes unrelated to life style.
Last time I looked (in my book), people with pre-existing conditions had a right to stay alive, too.
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those numbers are indeed indicating there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, in most countries hospitalizations take a few weeks to peak once the infection numbers go up...let's hope this trend of increasing hospitalizations stops.
In the NL Omikron is now taking off on it's vertical trajectory...in contrast to the UK we do not have a large enough military medical force that can ease the burden on hospital staff like in the UK.
You keep saying this, but how do you square this with the discrepancy between the number of unvaccinated who are hospitalized or dying from covid with the number of vaccinated?
Then again, as far as I can see, you haven’t responded directly to a single person on this thread, so I think maybe the point is that you don’t have counterarguments. Rather, you’re just sharing your beliefs, which is fine, but probably the rest of us should start realizing that we’re not having a dialogue here.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Keith Sinclair
Senior Member
Word Influenza comes from being under the effect of the earth, moon, and stars. Humans didn't have any idea what was making them sick. They killed cats in Europe during the Black Death made it worse more rats and fleas.
Single cell bacteria is oldest of life forms. Only 1% of bacteria is harmful to humans, but those can kill you. You have them on your skin, hair, all inside of body we couldn't survive without healthy bacteria. Antibacterial drugs can save your life, but overuse can make them lose effectiveness & they kill your good bacteria too.
Antibacterial wonder drugs were the cure all, but overuse even in animal breeds for food have been a mistake.
Bacteria and Virus love crowds when humans became more populated living in cities perfect breeding for microbes.
They continue to mutate making old vaccines non affective against new virus strains.
The doctor who realized that washing your hands prevented more patients from death was ridiculed and died an alcoholic.
Not even through first of 4 DVD on Microscopic world, fascinating.
Single cell bacteria is oldest of life forms. Only 1% of bacteria is harmful to humans, but those can kill you. You have them on your skin, hair, all inside of body we couldn't survive without healthy bacteria. Antibacterial drugs can save your life, but overuse can make them lose effectiveness & they kill your good bacteria too.
Antibacterial wonder drugs were the cure all, but overuse even in animal breeds for food have been a mistake.
Bacteria and Virus love crowds when humans became more populated living in cities perfect breeding for microbes.
They continue to mutate making old vaccines non affective against new virus strains.
The doctor who realized that washing your hands prevented more patients from death was ridiculed and died an alcoholic.
Not even through first of 4 DVD on Microscopic world, fascinating.
Duck and cover
The most recent US Community Profile report from the CDC This data is also available broken down to the county level
Boston area wastewater
Long covid I would read this with an extremely critical eye. The guy who complied this is a software geek not a medical doctor or virologist and I certainly haven't even dented his list of studies at this point. Caveat lector, but not good news.
The most recent US Community Profile report from the CDC This data is also available broken down to the county level
Boston area wastewater
Long covid I would read this with an extremely critical eye. The guy who complied this is a software geek not a medical doctor or virologist and I certainly haven't even dented his list of studies at this point. Caveat lector, but not good news.
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I never knew Semmelweiss did come to his end being manhandled in a psycho ward, I only knew that his contribution to medicine was awarded posthumously.
@LostHighway , interesting read!
Perhaps in here we find an explanation for the folks not believing Covid exists...
That seems to explain why there is evidence of persistent cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from SARS-CoV2 infection in Great Britain.
(20/
)
Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19Interpretation. These results accord with reports of ‘Long Covid’ cognitive symptoms that persist into the early-chronic phase. They should act as a clarion call for further research with longitudinal…https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
@LostHighway , interesting read!
Perhaps in here we find an explanation for the folks not believing Covid exists...
That seems to explain why there is evidence of persistent cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from SARS-CoV2 infection in Great Britain.
(20/
)Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19Interpretation. These results accord with reports of ‘Long Covid’ cognitive symptoms that persist into the early-chronic phase. They should act as a clarion call for further research with longitudinal…https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00324-2/fulltext
riba
Senior Member
Not sure that study generalizes to the rest of the world. The British are a bit .... peculiar
Reads like the sky is falling, we are all doomed. His solutions are not feasible especially now with omicron and not in the US or other countries with similar cultures. Checking the studies he collected is pretty impossible for anyone not specifically in the field and someone with a lot of time to follow them to the sources.
Not saying he is wrong, just no reasonable way to check and if he is right, we are all done for unless you manage to avoid getting the virus in your system. Even asymptomatic are not safe from damage according to him.
U.K. Study Fails to Prove Masks Work in Schools
“Schools with face-covering rules in October 2021 saw their absence rate drop by 2.3 percentage points, to 3%, two to three weeks later. In schools that didn’t use masks, absences fell by 1.7 percentage points, to 3.6%.”
We are going to be seeing a lot more of this as everyone realizes face coverings are ineffective in day to day life
As soon as the facemask is worn it’s considered contaminated, and as soon as you touch that mask to move it wiggle it to take it off or anything your hands are immediately considered contaminated
Not only that but a virus particle that’s airborne will pass right through any fabric that’s not N95 and above and properly fitted, all it takes is one virus to infect one person
If a mask is not perfectly fitted the air that you breathe out doesn’t go perfectly through the mask it goes through the path of least resistance which is outside of the mask and then the virus hangs in the air for sometime
Droplet is also small enough to pass through a face mask that’s not N95 and above, and again if a person sneezes that virus is passing through the mask and it’s going to hang in the air for sometime even if it’s droplet
https://assets.publishing.service.g...1044767/Evidence_summary_-_face_coverings.pdf
Here’s a second one
“Schools with face-covering rules in October 2021 saw their absence rate drop by 2.3 percentage points, to 3%, two to three weeks later. In schools that didn’t use masks, absences fell by 1.7 percentage points, to 3.6%.”
We are going to be seeing a lot more of this as everyone realizes face coverings are ineffective in day to day life
As soon as the facemask is worn it’s considered contaminated, and as soon as you touch that mask to move it wiggle it to take it off or anything your hands are immediately considered contaminated
Not only that but a virus particle that’s airborne will pass right through any fabric that’s not N95 and above and properly fitted, all it takes is one virus to infect one person
If a mask is not perfectly fitted the air that you breathe out doesn’t go perfectly through the mask it goes through the path of least resistance which is outside of the mask and then the virus hangs in the air for sometime
Droplet is also small enough to pass through a face mask that’s not N95 and above, and again if a person sneezes that virus is passing through the mask and it’s going to hang in the air for sometime even if it’s droplet
https://assets.publishing.service.g...1044767/Evidence_summary_-_face_coverings.pdf
Here’s a second one
Kinda agree about that thread; @LostHighway was smart to say we should read it critically. I don't really know what to make of it, and I trust institutions of experts more than CS guys with twitter threads to present info in a way that's accurate and helpful to laypeople like me. That said, I didn't read the whole thread or look at many of the studies, so yea, I'm yet another underinformed internet commenter, and maybe that thread holds what we'll all know to be the truth in a year.
The other links posted are definitely frightening, though...
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